
muttley600
Banned
Sure, playing perfectly is the goal; as you say, sometimes they make "minute" changes. Sometimes they mask intonation problems with vibrato. But they don't make the 2mm+ adjustments we're talking about; it would sound bad.
I've been out of town (in New Orleans, listening to some justly intonated brass). In the mean time, I took at look at Ivan Galamian's book (he's probably the most respected violin teacher of all time). In roughly 100 pages, he writes about intonation for three. The vast majority of the three pages are about learning to play from muscle memory (that is, learning to play notes in tune by simply putting the fingers down). At the very end he nods to other instruments and says that the violinist needs to be able to play in tune with any other instruments. Since I was looking at the 3rd edition (post humus), one of his students wrote a postlude about what it was like to study under him. One of the anecdotes was how particular he was about intonation. By my reading, it supports what I've been saying.
I see there have been no references added to this thread to support the notion that violinists use any intonation system other than Pythagorean.
In the mean time, I've realized something. My ear-training has a different perspective than the rest of y'all. My instrument is tuned justly. My C(#) is a harmonic just third over my drones. All my notes are harmonically justly tuned to my drones. As a result, I have learned to know what harmonically just intervals sound like. It's what I do. My constant exposure to justly tuned instruments has made ET boring and dry. When I hear just intervals against an ET accompaniment they stand out.
But I thought of something else. And it happens to bring things back on topic for this sub-forum. Jimi Hendrix is said to have bent individual notes in his chords into tune. This made me think about this topic in a larger context. Muttly has made the argument that everyone in an ensemble must use the same intonation system. If that's true, then how come when Albert Collins or Buddy Guy bends a note less than a half step it can sound good? Clearly when these guys bend notes a quarter tone (or less) they're taking the note out of equal temperament. And sometimes they sit on that note.
I'm not too concerned with what the math says-- if it sounds good, then it's good -- there's a lot of western music that's just not ET. Just go listen to any orchestra on pretty much any night -- there's *usually* no ET instrument at all.
I'm not about to continue this with you, I have no axe to grind with you. You can believe what you like. You are not disagreeing with me or Lt Bob, or Paraglider all of whom have said you have it a little wrong. You are disagreeing with accepted musicology and just about every musicologist out there. Thats fine it's your privalege.
The only reason I took this up with you is because there are many here who don't need to leave with more misconceptions than exist already. Like I have said as part of my life I teach this stuff to degree students and musicians. It's not "my theory" or any great scheme of mine to change the way history has been recorded.
If you have the time give this a read.
How Equal Temperament Ruined History.
I know the guy from my early music days making lutes and viols, and he can put it in words much better than I can plus it is a very good read. He also like you thinks we shouldn't be using 12ET but accepts that we do as the premise for his argument. The review say this
For nearly a century, equal temperament—the practice of dividing an octave into twelve equally proportioned half-steps—has held a virtual monopoly on the way in which instruments are tuned and played. In his new book, Duffin explains how we came to rely exclusively on equal temperament by charting the fascinating evolution of tuning through the ages. Along the way, he challenges the widely held belief that equal temperament is a perfect, "naturally selected" musical system, and proposes a radical reevaluation of how we play and hear music.
Good luck gmhg41, as I said I have no personal problem with you. I just want people here to have the basics right so that any future research they may want to do is well grounded.