Muttley - Tuning question

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gmhg41 said:
Sure, playing perfectly is the goal; as you say, sometimes they make "minute" changes. Sometimes they mask intonation problems with vibrato. But they don't make the 2mm+ adjustments we're talking about; it would sound bad.

I've been out of town (in New Orleans, listening to some justly intonated brass). In the mean time, I took at look at Ivan Galamian's book (he's probably the most respected violin teacher of all time). In roughly 100 pages, he writes about intonation for three. The vast majority of the three pages are about learning to play from muscle memory (that is, learning to play notes in tune by simply putting the fingers down). At the very end he nods to other instruments and says that the violinist needs to be able to play in tune with any other instruments. Since I was looking at the 3rd edition (post humus), one of his students wrote a postlude about what it was like to study under him. One of the anecdotes was how particular he was about intonation. By my reading, it supports what I've been saying.

I see there have been no references added to this thread to support the notion that violinists use any intonation system other than Pythagorean.

In the mean time, I've realized something. My ear-training has a different perspective than the rest of y'all. My instrument is tuned justly. My C(#) is a harmonic just third over my drones. All my notes are harmonically justly tuned to my drones. As a result, I have learned to know what harmonically just intervals sound like. It's what I do. My constant exposure to justly tuned instruments has made ET boring and dry. When I hear just intervals against an ET accompaniment they stand out.

But I thought of something else. And it happens to bring things back on topic for this sub-forum. Jimi Hendrix is said to have bent individual notes in his chords into tune. This made me think about this topic in a larger context. Muttly has made the argument that everyone in an ensemble must use the same intonation system. If that's true, then how come when Albert Collins or Buddy Guy bends a note less than a half step it can sound good? Clearly when these guys bend notes a quarter tone (or less) they're taking the note out of equal temperament. And sometimes they sit on that note.

I'm not too concerned with what the math says-- if it sounds good, then it's good -- there's a lot of western music that's just not ET. Just go listen to any orchestra on pretty much any night -- there's *usually* no ET instrument at all.
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I'm not about to continue this with you, I have no axe to grind with you. You can believe what you like. You are not disagreeing with me or Lt Bob, or Paraglider all of whom have said you have it a little wrong. You are disagreeing with accepted musicology and just about every musicologist out there. Thats fine it's your privalege.

The only reason I took this up with you is because there are many here who don't need to leave with more misconceptions than exist already. Like I have said as part of my life I teach this stuff to degree students and musicians. It's not "my theory" or any great scheme of mine to change the way history has been recorded.

If you have the time give this a read.

How Equal Temperament Ruined History.

I know the guy from my early music days making lutes and viols, and he can put it in words much better than I can plus it is a very good read. He also like you thinks we shouldn't be using 12ET but accepts that we do as the premise for his argument. The review say this

For nearly a century, equal temperament—the practice of dividing an octave into twelve equally proportioned half-steps—has held a virtual monopoly on the way in which instruments are tuned and played. In his new book, Duffin explains how we came to rely exclusively on equal temperament by charting the fascinating evolution of tuning through the ages. Along the way, he challenges the widely held belief that equal temperament is a perfect, "naturally selected" musical system, and proposes a radical reevaluation of how we play and hear music.
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Good luck gmhg41, as I said I have no personal problem with you. I just want people here to have the basics right so that any future research they may want to do is well grounded.
 
muttley600 said:
You are disagreeing with accepted musicology and just about every musicologist out there. Thats fine it's your privilege.
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Ditto
And I can tell you for a fact that if you played with any ensemble of anyone I know, and you failed to play in tune with them because you were determined to play in your 'just' temperment, regardless of the fact that everyone else was in ET, the main topic of laughter after you left would be how out of tune you played and who the hell would we get for the next gig.
As for the Albert Lee comment ...... it works when he does it only in the sense that he does it as a solo issue and thus, the note is essentially a 'passing tone' even if he holds it a long time.
It would not work in any other context other than during a solo type passage.
And BTW, I'm from there (New Orleans area) and grew up there and played there for the last 40 years and those brass bands do not play in 'just temperment' ....... hell, a LOT of them are barely aware of tuning as an issue at all.
As muttley says, feel free to do as you wish but you're not correct in all this.
Just how much do you gig anyway?
 
Should I even bring up how to tune 12-string guitars? :D I feel like they kinda bring up a good point about the difference between "technically in-tune" and "sounds good"...
 
muttley600 said:
It was discussed a bit in this related but separate thread when this one was going full steam..

Try this

12 strings - referencing the Muttley/tuning thread...
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Thanks for the link! I was moreso suggesting using it as a reference for the "should/can everything be exactly 'in-tune'?" question, vs. a "how-to". If you tune the strings "perfectly," it can sound quite odd, vs. tuning them slightly off, which as mentioned in the aforementioned thread will create the pleasing chorus-y affect (effect?) that we all know and love.

Didn't mean to derail the thread or anything: back to the technical gibberish we as humans have decided is necessary to define the intangible awesomeness that is - music :)
 
muttley600 said:
I'm not about to continue this with you, I have no axe to grind with you. You can believe what you like. You are not disagreeing with me or Lt Bob, or Paraglider all of whom have said you have it a little wrong. You are disagreeing with accepted musicology and just about every musicologist out there. Thats fine it's your privilege.

The only reason I took this up with you is because there are many here who don't need to leave with more misconceptions than exist already. Like I have said as part of my life I teach this stuff to degree students and musicians. It's not "my theory" or any great scheme of mine to change the way history has been recorded.
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My perception of this thread so far:

I have provided citations to several peer reviewed scientific studies that support the notion that violinists play pythagorean tuning.

I have provided several specific examples of world class violinists playing other than equal tempered.

I have provided a specific reference to a world class violin teacher who's prose suggests violinists don't play ET.

I have also provided examples of various types of musicians who play other than ET along with ET accompaniment in real life.

Several people have suggested "my" thoughts are wrong (despite the fact that they're really the thoughts of others who have made their lives figuring this kind of thing out, and not my thoughts at all), but said people decline to provide either citations or examples.

You wanna try to make your case with no facts, no anecdotes and no empirical evidence I guess I'm done too.

I feel sorry for your students.
 
Lt. Bob said:
As for the Albert Lee comment ...... it works when he does it only in the sense that he does it as a solo issue and thus, the note is essentially a 'passing tone' even if he holds it a long time.
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To be clear --

You are saying that one instrument can play any given tone against an ET backing and it can sound good?

Depending, obviously, on the circumstance.

So what happens in your typical orchestral circumstance where there are no tempered instruments?
 
Lt. Bob said:
dude ..... you don't seem to have a clue.
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I'd just let him go. He has as you say no idea about it and clearly can't read either or he would have seen plenty of the things he says my argument lacks. I even gave him a link and a quote to a book by one of the greatest temperament musicologists and historians out there.

No matter how many times he states something as true I'm afraid it just isn't going to make it so.;)
 
Muttley you should really get some kinda web space going, even with stuff on how to tune 12 strings and FAQs.
 
TelePaul said:
Muttley you should really get some kinda web space going, even with stuff on how to tune 12 strings and FAQs.
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I had a site a few years back. It didn't really get me much business and took too long to maintain. I intend to get it up again when time permits but I wouldn't link to it from here.

I have enough work for the next two years and no sign of it slowing and I wouldn't attempt to generate traffic via any of the forums I hang at. For me thats a no no, I like to just hang out here without my business head on. I was going to start a few sticky type threads covering some stuff on the basics of luthiery, acoustics and temperaments. If someone could email me some free time I'll get right on it..:D

Maybe I could start up a blog and link to that but I wouldn't want to split the dynamic here, its good and I also don't mind supporting Dragons hared work over the years.
 
muttley600 said:
I'd just let him go. He has as you say no idea about it and clearly can't read either or he would have seen plenty of the things he says my argument lacks. I even gave him a link and a quote to a book by one of the greatest temperament musicologists and historians out there.

No matter how many times he states something as true I'm afraid it just isn't going to make it so.;)
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One quote from a guy with an obvious (duh) bias vs. two peer reviewed publications plus eye witness accounts of the world's greatest [ever] violin pedagog. Yeah, I suppose my sources just aren't credible.

Or just like take any cool horn riff and play it on a keyboard and see if it's half as cool.

Like the title of your single source implies: ET sucks. Have some guts and play what sounds good, instead of what your tuner says.
 
My tuner broke and attempting to tune with my keyboard:eek:...so I've been going thru threads and this one has some good info that can't be bad to reread...especially if you have adult ADHD...;)




....gave it bump!
 
true-eurt said:
My tuner broke and attempting to tune with my keyboard:eek:...so I've been going thru threads and this one has some good info that can't be bad to reread...especially if you have adult ADHD...;)




....gave it bump!
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Hey True, what info you after and you can bump me anytime.:D
 
muttley600 said:
Hey True, what info you after and you can bump me anytime.:D
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I am needing to tune my geetars without a tuner, using my keyboard...a 76 key Yamaha Portable Grand. Will this work well for a guide?





Bumpbumpbumpbumpbumpbumpbumpitybumpbump....:D
 
true-eurt said:
I am needing to tune my geetars without a tuner, using my keyboard...a 76 key Yamaha Portable Grand. Will this work well for a guide?





Bumpbumpbumpbumpbumpbumpbumpitybumpbump....:D
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You'll be fine. Try using the method described in the GAL article taking a single note as the reference note. It will help in many ways. Firstly you should be in tune across the fret board and for the intonation of your guitar. Second you'll be in tune with the keyboard. Third you'll help develop your ear for tuning and lastly you'll soon be able to do it quickly. It's just another acquired skill.

The most important things to consider when tuning are. That you are in tune with your self, that you are in tune with the other instruments, and that you are in tune to A=440, in that order. Too many people rely on a tuner to tune each string. It is not the best way as it doesn't take any of the points I made above into account except the A=440 bit. Again it is not essential that you are bang on A=440 if the other instruments are not. Some here are currently trying to find a way of calibrating to fractions of a cent. An absolute waste of time for musical purposes as, instruments cant and don't achieve such tight tolerances, and also our ears on average can tell the difference between two or three cents at most. Some can but not as precise as fractions of a cent. For scientific or engineering purposes I may use a well calibrated tuner, but not for tuning and playing a guitar. Far more important are the above points and the music that issues forth from it.

Thanks for the bumpty.:D
 
Thank you very much Muttley!!! That is the answer I was seeking.:)





And you are always welkom to ...and for...a bumpity bump...:D
 
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