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tdukex
Man of the Muse
This has turned into one of the most interesting discussions I have encountered on this Board in nine years.
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32-20-Blues
New member
We have been over and over this. You really must pay attention in class..
Hey, be nice to me! I know you're an expert in this field, but if I had to explain the details of modernism vs postmodernism in Irish literature of the twentieth century to you, you wouldn't grasp it first time either.
Seriously, thanks for clearing that up for me. I printed it off, and it's now in my guitar case. I've been hanging round on the harmony-central guitar forum, and people there were saying some things that caused me to question what I thought I knew. So, naturally, I came back here to consult my mentor.
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ggunn
Crystal Flavolian
Interesting in a technical content way or in a "Clash Of The Titans" way? ;^)
muttley600
Banned
Hey, be nice to me! I know you're an expert in this field, but if I had to explain the details of modernism vs postmodernism in Irish literature of the twentieth century to you, you wouldn't grasp it first time either.
Scary, but now I know who to ask when I need to. What have they been saying? what? Let me at them.......
And how's that Uke coming along? You promised pictures and sound clips.
apl
Stand Up Comity
Wow, cool.
I've been a member of ASA, too!
So what about all the vibrato those violinists do? How many cents? Is that enough to get from ET to another?
I've been a member of ASA, too!
So what about all the vibrato those violinists do? How many cents? Is that enough to get from ET to another?
3
32-20-Blues
New member
What have they been saying? what? Let me at them.......
And how's that Uke coming along? You promised pictures and sound clips.
College got in the way, and I had to shelve the uke project for a bit. I've also been around here a bit less recently. However, I'm going to get back to work on it soon. Pics and clips will be duly provided.
muttley600
Banned
Good stuff, but don't rush on it. Get that college work done first.
Look forward to the pics and clips.
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Paraglider
New member
Great thanks, and always welcome. I've added another on the Cycle of Fifths, again from a guitarists perspective.
Anyone looking for a really authoritative reference on music theory could do no better than consult Dolmetsch Online - yes, the recorder makers! But their site is a treasure trove of music theory & history. E.g. try this article on tuning:
http://www.dolmetsch.com/musictheory27.htm
muttley600
Banned
Many many years ago I trained under some of the Dolmetsch guys when they still had instrument workshops. Hence my interest in Viols, Lutes and other early fretted stuff. They don't just do recorders.
Dolmetsch is good stuff but there are better places to find the info you need. The content of most of the Dolmetsch archive is very reliable though if a little dry and taken from primarily an Early Music perspective.
TelePaul
J to the R O C
This is why I like drums.
muttley600
Banned
I don't wish to put you off but the acoustics of vibrating membranes is a lot harder than that of the humble vibrating string.
Lt. Bob
Spread the Daf!
Couple of observations and first, my background:
Piano tuner for over 30 years and until I retired last year, one of the busiest in the country ..... 3 to 5 pianos a day 6 days a week for at least the last 15 years of doing it.
I play sax (which isn't brass but still, SOME similarities) and I play git ..... sax at an extremely high level and git at a pretty good level. I've played both for over 40 years and since 1969 I've done around 11,000 gigs ..... still playing 5-7 gigs a week.
As a piano tuner, I've talked thousands of times with at least dozens of tuners and have played with many many violinists.
No one ever talks about any of this stuff ever!
A violinist does not think in those terms ...... they simply play so it is in tune with whatever they are playing with. And it is not true that they always put that finger down precisely in tune ..... they make small adjustments all the time. Since the movement for pitch change is so small on a violin, it can be hard or impossible to see but I've stood 3 feet from more players than I can count and any good violinist makes the minute changes to be in tune as they play without thinking about it. Yes, a really good one will hit the right spot almost all the time but even they aren't perfect and will change as needed.
As for ET ...... they play to be in tune with whatever they're playing along with if they're any good. So if the instruments they are playing with are ET ..... then they play that way without ever thinking about such concepts. The only thing they try to do is be in tune which requires matching up with whatever their accompianment is whether it's an orchestra or a piano or a country band.
The only time I can see them not needing to do that is solo or possibly a duo with another violinist.
Sax is way more variable in tuning from note to note than brass but the principal is the same and it's the same as with violin.
I'm about as good on sax as you're ever gonna run into and even though I'm a tuner too, I NEVER think about things like ET. The only thing I'm doing is playing in tune with whatever is around me. If I'm playing with a pianist, I'm definitely playing ET because I'm adjusting all the time to play in tune with him. Many many sax players and brass play out of tune it's true. but that's not because they adher to some non-ET philosophy. It's because they can't play in tune! And the only reason I would hire someone back like that is 'cause horn players are relatively scarce these days.
As a piano tuner, I can do them by ear though when I was doing so many, I did have a very expensive tuner that I would use on around 30 of the 230-240 strings in a piano. The rest was totally by ear.
Pianos can vary an awful lot in how much they need to be stretched to be in tune and different tuners may hear it differently. You can actually tune a piano surprisingly different ways as far as stretch goes and have it sound good (but different) in all of them.
But all this mathematical dissection of piano tuning? That's all beginner stuff that you learn in tuning school and then forget, for the most part, when you get in the real world of tuning real peoples pianos in their living rooms.
Piano tuner for over 30 years and until I retired last year, one of the busiest in the country ..... 3 to 5 pianos a day 6 days a week for at least the last 15 years of doing it.
I play sax (which isn't brass but still, SOME similarities) and I play git ..... sax at an extremely high level and git at a pretty good level. I've played both for over 40 years and since 1969 I've done around 11,000 gigs ..... still playing 5-7 gigs a week.
As a piano tuner, I've talked thousands of times with at least dozens of tuners and have played with many many violinists.
No one ever talks about any of this stuff ever!
A violinist does not think in those terms ...... they simply play so it is in tune with whatever they are playing with. And it is not true that they always put that finger down precisely in tune ..... they make small adjustments all the time. Since the movement for pitch change is so small on a violin, it can be hard or impossible to see but I've stood 3 feet from more players than I can count and any good violinist makes the minute changes to be in tune as they play without thinking about it. Yes, a really good one will hit the right spot almost all the time but even they aren't perfect and will change as needed.
As for ET ...... they play to be in tune with whatever they're playing along with if they're any good. So if the instruments they are playing with are ET ..... then they play that way without ever thinking about such concepts. The only thing they try to do is be in tune which requires matching up with whatever their accompianment is whether it's an orchestra or a piano or a country band.
The only time I can see them not needing to do that is solo or possibly a duo with another violinist.
Sax is way more variable in tuning from note to note than brass but the principal is the same and it's the same as with violin.
I'm about as good on sax as you're ever gonna run into and even though I'm a tuner too, I NEVER think about things like ET. The only thing I'm doing is playing in tune with whatever is around me. If I'm playing with a pianist, I'm definitely playing ET because I'm adjusting all the time to play in tune with him. Many many sax players and brass play out of tune it's true. but that's not because they adher to some non-ET philosophy. It's because they can't play in tune! And the only reason I would hire someone back like that is 'cause horn players are relatively scarce these days.
As a piano tuner, I can do them by ear though when I was doing so many, I did have a very expensive tuner that I would use on around 30 of the 230-240 strings in a piano. The rest was totally by ear.
Pianos can vary an awful lot in how much they need to be stretched to be in tune and different tuners may hear it differently. You can actually tune a piano surprisingly different ways as far as stretch goes and have it sound good (but different) in all of them.
But all this mathematical dissection of piano tuning? That's all beginner stuff that you learn in tuning school and then forget, for the most part, when you get in the real world of tuning real peoples pianos in their living rooms.
muttley600
Banned
Yep,
What genre are you playing most of those sax gigs as a matter of interest? Your right about finding good horn players. Especially those that can read and riff and don't want to take the head off a subtle arrangement..
I learned clarinet and alto at school. When I started doing jazz gigs on guitar I pretty much dropped them.
True but you have to understand it before you can choose to forget it. A bit like reading music. Your limited if you don't and you can ignore it if your can. Thats not saying there aren't great non reading musicians out there but It will never hurt to be able to read music or understand the why it is notated as it is.. We wouldn't have many of the instruments and refinements we have today without someone crunching those numbers. As I said though we are I think both on the same page here.
TelePaul
J to the R O C
I don't wish to put you off but the acoustics of vibrating membranes is a lot harder than that of the humble vibrating string.
Say what? You smack the drum, it goes 'doof'. There you have it, drumming.
Edit: If you're Phil Collins, it does 'doooooooooffffffffff'
G
ggunn
Crystal Flavolian
And so modest! ;^)
Lt. Bob
Spread the Daf!
it really varies. Back in Baton Rouge it tended to be jazz or funky stuff.
Here in Florida I do a lot of jazz gigs .... mostly standards and some bebop.
It's an older audience here. Lots of blues too ..... a freakin' TON of blues bands. I also do some work for a band that does a lot of Chicago, BS&T ... Steely Dan ..... that sort of stuff. But fortunately I play bass for that band since I get bored playing the same horn arrangements over and over. I prefer to be the only horn player in a band so i can have some freedom.
Probably half my gigs though are singles where I'll mainly play git and sing, picking the sax up for ocassional rides.
LOL .... yeah, I know,
but nothing I can't back up and I don't really mean it as an ego thing. It's more a statement of how I play in terms of establishing where I'm coming from in my understanding of horn.Playing has been my entire life .... almost nothing else of importance in life for me ..... and so after that much time and effort and reaching a high skill level,, I just don't feel the need to shuffle around and go, "Aw shucks ....... I can't play that well."
Monsterpop
New member
As an interesting side note, pipers have been changing their tuning over the last 100 years. Particularly over the last 40. The C and the F used to be midway between C and C# (or f/f#), but now they are decidedly C# and F#. Our tuning is becoming very harmonically just. In part, this trend is probably due to pipers listening to other kinds of music. It may also have something to do with the rise of the pipe band, and in particular the playing of harmony parts.[/QUOTE]
aye,it really used to be "fun" trying to be in tune with the pipes player we had
fantastic piper he was(and is) too,
but being prety much stone deaf after years of playing didnt help any
you do know why pipers constantly walk dont you folks?
yep, to try and get away from the sound
aye,it really used to be "fun" trying to be in tune with the pipes player we had
fantastic piper he was(and is) too,
but being prety much stone deaf after years of playing didnt help any
you do know why pipers constantly walk dont you folks?
yep, to try and get away from the sound
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Paraglider
New member
Lt Bob -
The reason tuning keeps coming up on this board is that guitarists are almost the only instrumentalists who have to tune their own instruments. And there are lots of misconceptions 'out there' on how to do it. Pianists call in a pro like yourself to do it for them. Wind and (fretless) string players just play in tune by listening. I agree no-one thinks ET while playing. Even relatively fixed instruments like oboe have some leeway. Not much, but at least as much as the difference between the perfect and the tempered fifth. I'm not going to say whether I'm any good or not, but I've played flute & sax in all kinds of bands and orchestras, and apart from the initial 'tuning up', everyone just tunes 'to the band', i.e. by ear, on the fly. But with a guitar, you can't do that if it's out of tune to start with.
The reason tuning keeps coming up on this board is that guitarists are almost the only instrumentalists who have to tune their own instruments. And there are lots of misconceptions 'out there' on how to do it. Pianists call in a pro like yourself to do it for them. Wind and (fretless) string players just play in tune by listening. I agree no-one thinks ET while playing. Even relatively fixed instruments like oboe have some leeway. Not much, but at least as much as the difference between the perfect and the tempered fifth. I'm not going to say whether I'm any good or not, but I've played flute & sax in all kinds of bands and orchestras, and apart from the initial 'tuning up', everyone just tunes 'to the band', i.e. by ear, on the fly. But with a guitar, you can't do that if it's out of tune to start with.
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Paraglider
New member
That's true, and it's a trend I don't much care for. Traditionally, pipes played to a different scale, but they all played to the same scale (give or take!) and as they never played with other instruments it was no problem. The strange intervals were part of the 'charm'.
Some years back, in my BBC days, I recorded the entire Silver Chanter pibroch competition in the stone banqueting hall of Dunvegan Castle on the Isle of Skye. Three days of pibroch inside a stone echo chamber - you've got to learn to love that scale or you'll go crazy.
Now, living in the middle east, I hear lots of Arabic music, mostly played on fretless lutes and strings. Their scale is far from ET and uses lots of quarter tones, but it's largely melodic and unison. Precious little modulation and the harmony is rarely more than a drone.
G
gmhg41
New member
Sure, playing perfectly is the goal; as you say, sometimes they make "minute" changes. Sometimes they mask intonation problems with vibrato. But they don't make the 2mm+ adjustments we're talking about; it would sound bad.
I've been out of town (in New Orleans, listening to some justly intonated brass). In the mean time, I took at look at Ivan Galamian's book (he's probably the most respected violin teacher of all time). In roughly 100 pages, he writes about intonation for three. The vast majority of the three pages are about learning to play from muscle memory (that is, learning to play notes in tune by simply putting the fingers down). At the very end he nods to other instruments and says that the violinist needs to be able to play in tune with any other instruments. Since I was looking at the 3rd edition (post humus), one of his students wrote a postlude about what it was like to study under him. One of the anecdotes was how particular he was about intonation. By my reading, it supports what I've been saying.
I see there have been no references added to this thread to support the notion that violinists use any intonation system other than Pythagorean.
In the mean time, I've realized something. My ear-training has a different perspective than the rest of y'all. My instrument is tuned justly. My C(#) is a harmonic just third over my drones. All my notes are harmonically justly tuned to my drones. As a result, I have learned to know what harmonically just intervals sound like. It's what I do. My constant exposure to justly tuned instruments has made ET boring and dry. When I hear just intervals against an ET accompaniment they stand out.
But I thought of something else. And it happens to bring things back on topic for this sub-forum. Jimi Hendrix is said to have bent individual notes in his chords into tune. This made me think about this topic in a larger context. Muttly has made the argument that everyone in an ensemble must use the same intonation system. If that's true, then how come when Albert Collins or Buddy Guy bends a note less than a half step it can sound good? Clearly when these guys bend notes a quarter tone (or less) they're taking the note out of equal temperament. And sometimes they sit on that note.
I'm not too concerned with what the math says-- if it sounds good, then it's good -- there's a lot of western music that's just not ET. Just go listen to any orchestra on pretty much any night -- there's *usually* no ET instrument at all.