Muttley & Light: Gibson USA vs. Gibson Custom Shop

[Zaphod B]

Hey, gents.

Like all the questions I pose to you as luthiers, I suspect the answer isn't as simple as I expect it to be, but here goes.

Is there any fundamental quality difference between guitars - specifically Les Pauls - made by the Gibson USA facility and the Custom Shop? By quality I am not referring to resale value or the mythical desirability of Historic Reissues, but rather the expectation that the guitar can be set up properly, plays well, sounds good, is structurally sound, and will remain that way for a long time.

I recall reading that the Custom Shop gets higher-grade lumber but I don't understand how that translates into the overall "quality." I also understand about the long-tenon / short tenon neck joint situation but I don't know if that has any significance other than historical accuracy.

Comments?

 

[muttley600]

To be honest I have seen much of the output of the Gibson custom shop over the last few years. I've heard lots but wouldn't comment personally. Light may have more of an opinion on that, but..

In essence a custom shop is just that, you get what you ask for. So if you want a three pickup black beauty style Les Paul Junior in wine red sunburst with a coil tap on the centre pickup and a Lloyd Loar style tailpiece with a curly maple top...Thats what you get. Should the resulting guitar be easier to setup maintain or last better than a stock 2008 Les Paul std? No, but in practice it will probably get better QC by it's very definition and the fact that they are aware that they are being paid a premium to supply you with what you want. Not supplying a one size fits all product.

What I an others like me do is an extension of that principle. I build exactly what people want to their spec, within reason. With a Gibson custom there is always going to be certain things that are "Gibson" there is no getting away from that. They use tools, jigs and techniques that are applied even in the custom shop. That isn't a criticism just an observation. I and others can be more flexible because we don't have the same constraints that they do by their very nature.

The custom shop should and I think does use the top end timber and as far as the function, performance, stability, cosmetic and value thing is concerned it is probably one of the major benefits that there custom shop can offer.

To give you an example, of the common luthier timbers, only about one percent of the production of that timber world wide will find it's way into the hands of guitar makers, and then only about one percent of that will find it's way into the custom shop. Why because it looks fantastic, its perfectly cut, dried, stable and well....perfect really. Another example, I've just finished a commission for an archtop on which the timber alone cost me more than two or three Les Paul Std's would cost you so yes the very best timber is a big factor in the very best guitars.

So to sum up, your first question, Should a custom shop guitar be better to setup maintain etc? No. Will it be more desirable and made of better materials and closer to your dream guitar. I would hope so. Not least because the timber should be top of the top and the build unique to you. Is that always true of Gibsons custom shop? No comment.

 

[Zaphod B]

Thanks, Muttley.

Edit: My impression is that the Gibson Custom Shop seems to be more of a small-scale manufacturer of a range of specific historic-spec and signature models, rather than a true custom builder. I know it's possible to have them build what you want, but it's not obvious to me how that's done.

 

[muttley600]

Thanks, Muttley.

Edit: My impression is that the Gibson Custom Shop seems to be more of a small-scale manufacturer of a range of specific historic-spec and signature models, rather than a true custom builder. I know it's possible to have them build what you want, but it's not obvious to me how that's done.

Your exactly right from what I understand. It wasn't always that way. They simply don't have the skilled luthiers required to make "true" custom or bespoke instruments, IMHO. What am I saying I know they haven't.

To get a quote on what you want you simply call them up. Why are you thinking of going that way?

 

[Zaphod B]

To get a quote on what you want you simply call them up. Why are you thinking of going that way?

I'm not, really. I'm just trying to judge the value of, say, a Custom Shop R8 at $3000+ USD compared to a USA Standard at $1000 less. It's hard for me to gauge how much true value there is in that extra $1000.

 

[muttley600]

If you look at it from a wider perspective why would you pay a grand for any Les Paul when a £300 copy does the same thing and ticks all the boxes you listed. God as they say is in the detail. It does get to a point of diminishing returns for many people and thats fine.

Most of the people I build for have a very specific requirement and are prepared to pay for it. In many ways it's a bit like a car or a house. You can drive to work every day in a ford focus, it does the job perfectly well, or share your three bed semi with a wife and three kids, it will serve you just fine. Ultimately when you've done it for a while you start to hanker after a little more than the stock car or house. Guitars are no different, they are tools and if you get the best you can afford and ALWAYS want a better one. Especially if it's your living or you can simply justify the purchase.

 

[Zaphod B]

If you look at it from a wider perspective why would you pay a grand for any Les Paul when a £300 copy does the same thing and ticks all the boxes you listed. God as they say is in the detail. It does get to a point of diminishing returns for many people and thats fine.
......................
Guitars are no different, they are tools and if you get the best you can afford and ALWAYS want a better one.

We're never satisfied. Seems to be part of the human condition.

 

[BrentDomann]

To get a quote on what you want you simply call them up. Why are you thinking of going that way?

Can't do it. As far as I understand, Gibson Custom stopped making one-offs long ago.

 

[Zaphod B]

Can't do it. As far as I understand, Gibson Custom stopped making one-offs long ago.

Those rich rock stars are getting their cutom-made Gibsons somewhere.

 

[ausrock]

Zaph,

I recall someone here on HR getting a special order made, probably 3 or 4 years ago.....an awesome looking blue 12 string SG, so maybe they will still do true custom work.

We've had more than our fair share of Gibsons (pic here http://www.homerecording.com/bbs/attachment.php?attachmentid=10210&d=1089945912 ) a couple of which are "Custom Shop" Elegance (Elegant) models, these are definitely a step up from the Standards, etc., in finish and general playability. Whether that holds true for current Custom Shop issue I can't say.

 

[Nicole_Rose]

i think i read somewhere that gibson now requires an order of 25 guitars or more to do any work in the custom shop.

 

[donkeystyle]

Can't do it. As far as I understand, Gibson Custom stopped making one-offs long ago.

If they have, it wasn't that long ago. Like someone else pointed out, one of our fellow forum members had them make him a custom guitar.

I don't know if they still do or not; Brent and Nicole may be right. I do know that you used to have to do it through a dealer though.

With the gibson custom shop stuff you're getting a lighter piece of mahogany so that it doesn't have to be weight relieved(which will alter tone) and better looking maple. The long tenon neck is supposed to give you more sustain.......I personally don't know if that's true or not.

A Gibson custom shop guitar used to be able to have a brazilian rosewood fretboard, but Gibson doesn't use brazilian rosewood anymore. I think they stopped in either 2004 or 2005.

The custom shop guitars generally have gibson's better pickups. The reissues are also much closer to being historically accurate than the standards.

I don't believe that the gibson custom shop has any better Q.C. than the gibson america shop. The store that I mostly shop at used to be gibson's biggest custom shop dealer in the world, so I got to see a lot of gibson going through there. I've seen some really bad guitars come out of both shops.

I guess it's up to you to decide if those details are worth the extra money.

 

[muttley600]

i think i read somewhere that gibson now requires an order of 25 guitars or more to do any work in the custom shop.

Yes your just about right, but the more people that call them the more they will recommend other guitar makers.

 

[muttley600]

With the gibson custom shop stuff you're getting a lighter piece of mahogany so that it doesn't have to be weight relieved(which will alter tone) and better looking maple. The long tenon neck is supposed to give you more sustain.......I personally don't know if that's true or not.

Frankly this is absolute rubbish and you have no clue. Your right you don't know.

A Gibson custom shop guitar used to be able to have a brazilian rosewood fretboard, but Gibson doesn't use brazilian rosewood anymore. I think they stopped in either 2004 or 2005.

As opposed to what. You will not notice a difference tonally between Brazilian Rosewood and Indian as fingerboard material whether it's on a gibson or not.

The custom shop guitars generally have gibson's better pickups. The reissues are also much closer to being historically accurate than the standards.

What the hell does that mean? Historically accurate? So historically they had a way of making this stuff consistently good so they could stop doing it and then do it later on for more money? Do you know the variation in the specs of those old pickups? Do you know where and how the modern ones are made?

I don't believe that the gibson custom shop has any better Q.C. than the gibson america shop.

It does trust me. I know.

The shop that I mostly shop at used to be gibson's biggest custom shop dealer in the world, so I got to see a lot of gibson going through there. I've seen some really bad guitars come out of both shops.

I guess it's up to you to decide if those details are worth the extra money.

Is that what they told you? How long have you been living in Japan? Bless.....

 

[donkeystyle]

Frankly this is absolute rubbish and you have no clue. Your right you don't know.

As opposed to what. You will not notice a difference tonally between Brazilian Rosewood and Indian as fingerboard material whether it's on a gibson or not.


What the hell does that mean? Historically accurate? So historically they had a way of making this stuff consistently good so they could stop doing it and then do it later on for more money? Do you know the variation in the specs of those old pickups? Do you know where and how the modern ones are made?
It does trust me. I know.Is that what they told you? How long have you been living in Japan? Bless.....

how is it rubbish? of course holes in the body of the guitar are going to alter the tone. The gibson american guitars are weight relieved. The custom shop guitars are not. Though, they did do a couple runs of chambered reissues that routed in a similar way to the cs356.

I never said there was a tonal difference with brazillian rosewood. you're putting words in my mouth. I recently noticed you tend to do that. In my opinion it's generally a better looking rosewood in comparison to what they're using now.

Historically accurate--- maybe I could have worded this better. I meant physically. right down to the reissue/copy sprague caps (I don't know if sprague is making them)

They were listed on gibson's website as the number 1 custom shop dealer. Music machine. Right next to Wildwood and I think Dave's was the other. This would have been around 2003/2004 possibly 2005, but I don't remember for sure.

Definitely not in Japan. Though they did send a lot of guitars over there for some reason.

You sound like you need to go rub one out or something. relax.

 

[donkeystyle]

Oh, and I never claimed that one was better than the other.

Like I said, that is for anyone interested in buying one to decide.

I also never said that the long tenon neck did actually do anything for the sustain. That's what I've read and heard. I don't care if you disagree with it; I don't even know if I do agree with it, but it is a hypotheses. The difference between those 2 joints (the long tenon and shorter tenon) will definitely affect the tone.

oh....I realized after that last nitrocellulose thing that I used the term theory when I should have used hypothesis. I also overstated how many times that I had heard that hypothesis. I exaggerated and said"many, many times" when it's more like I've heard it a few times and read it a few times.

 

[Light]

The QC at the "Custom" Shop might be a little higher. (I use the quotes because the Gibson "Custom" shop no longer takes custom orders.) And they use mostly "vintage spec" parts, some of which (like the ABR-1 bridges) actually are closer to the Vintage spec, others (the Bumble Bee capacitors) are not even kind of close to vintage spec (the bumble bee caps they use are just modern caps put into a package that looks a little like the old ones, except that it is about half the size of the originals, and even then it is much larger than the actual functional cap inside it - and don't even get me started on the Sprauge Atom caps that all the amp dweebs think you should use for the electrolytic caps in tube amps these days.)

And of course, in most cases those historic spec parts were changed because they caused problems. ABR-1 bridges make it difficult to set the intonation properly, the Vintage Spec gears (essentially Klusons) have a lot more slop than the modern ones (essentially, Grovers), and the caps were changed because the old ones are an old technology that wears out faster than the new ones while making no difference on the sound of the guitar. But people will pay for these things, because they assume that they are a major part of the sound of the old guitars (when of course, the main difference between the old ones and the new ones is simply that the old ones are - get this - OLD! Age makes guitars sound better, and nothing you do to a new guitar will make it sound like an old one).

My only real issue, though, is that I think that a "Custom" shop should take custom orders.


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi

 

[ausrock]

QUOTE.........."The gibson american guitars are weight relieved. The custom shop guitars are not."

Again, I can't comment on current issue, but the Custom Shop "Elegant" model which was discontinued not too long ago was chambered and it wasn't a reissue.

Are you saying that all "standard" factory produced LPs are chambered and if so, when did they start doing this?

 

[Zaphod B]

Does anyone have any comments about the use of the long tenon neck joint vs. the short tenon joint? I think it's noteworthy that the short tenon joints have been used in the USA range for decades and from my limited perspective they seem to work.

Does the long tenon joint allow a longer truss rod (with relief adjustment over a longer percentage of the neck)? Are there any emprical data that show that one joint is preferable over the other for any reason?

 

[muttley600]

Does anyone have any comments about the use of the long tenon neck joint vs. the short tenon joint? I think it's noteworthy that the short tenon joints have been used in the USA range for decades and from my limited perspective they seem to work.

Not really. If executed correctly you want notice any difference tone wise or in use.

Does the long tenon joint allow a longer truss rod (with relief adjustment over a longer percentage of the neck)? Are there any emprical data that show that one joint is preferable over the other for any reason?

No to this as well. The truss rod will only act either as over it's length, or up to the neck body joint. Don't forget a truss rod is only counteracting the pull of the strings you don't want it to do anything else. Even if it went right up to the end of the neck it would not have any effect passed the body joint. The work done by the truss rod is always at it's greatest around the middle of it's length and to a degree it will want to pull the neck back in the same way as the strings pulled it forward. In other words where ever the wood wanted to bow in the first place. A good quarter cut neck blank with even tight grain will bow evenly along it's length quite evenly, which is what you want.