must my room be completely dead?

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zed32

zed32

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OK, i finally have a room to set up my recording stuff. due to lack of space, i think i'm going to have to do both recording and mixing within the same one room. the room measures 9'10" wide by 16'11" long by 7'8" high. now am i correct in assuming that this room is too small to have any kind of useful "life" to it? i'm probably going to have to try and make this a completely "dry" room right? for me, soundproofing the room is not a major issue at all, but treatment is more important. the floor right now is carpeted, so should i leave it carpet, or should i put some kind of reflective flooring and treat the cieling instead? or should i leave the carpet AND treat the cieling? from what i observed, the cieling is composed of large tiles with approximately 4" thick fiberglass insulation on the other side, i guess its like the kind of tiles you'd find in a office building cieling. i think it goes without saying that i'm not looking to get professional results out of this room, and i'm leaning far toward the "homerec" end of the quality scale here, but i would like to try and make the most of my situation.

another question i had: i'm probably going to make some fiberglass bass traps for the corners to begin with. however, i was wondering if instead of covering them with cloth, i could cover them with "acoustic foam". i have a bunch of wedge foam tiles and i was thinking maybe they could help with high frequency absorbtion, and then when the lower frequencies pass through the foam, then the fiberglass will do it's part. is this a bad idea? is using foam at all in this room a bad idea? would i benefit from any sort of home made diffusion devices, or is the room too small? most of the treatment i would do here is probably going to be DIY stuff because i'm not on a huge budget.

i'll post a sketch of the room later once i get some more measurements as far as where doors and windows are located so i can get some suggestions as far as where to place my stuff. anyway, any suggestions that can be offered will be much appreciated. i hate to ask a question like this because it seems like the material has been covered over and over again in this forum, but i'm just wondering about the specifics of my particular room. anyway thanks in advance. :)
 
thanks for the links APL, i think im going to read a little more before i decide what to do with treatment, but i'm still wondering if it would be a bad idea to put foam on top of the 703. i'm thinking make a 2'x2' wooden frame, filled with 2" 703, then instead of covering the outside with cloth, cover it with 4 1'x1' 2" thick wedge foam tiles. would that defeat the purpose of the fiberglass underneath? right now i have enough foam to make 4 of these things if i wanted to...

i took a couple of crappy pics of my studio space today, we just started painting it so it will look a little better, the old paint was in horrible condition. the wall surfaces are some kind of fiberboard sheets. ive included a picture of the back corner of the room. the door in the picture leads outside to a balcony which is on top of the garage.
 

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the cieling is kind of interesting....as you can see in the above picture, it's a bunch of long tiles which consist of a very thin plastic surface and are backed by about 1" of some type of fiber and is supported by a metal grid. above that is a thick layer of fluffy fiberglass insulation. are these tiles worth keeping, or should i plan on replacing them? i'm thinking if i get some type of laminate reflective floor surface in place, maybe i should just replace those cieling tiles with 1" (or 2"?) 703 wrapped in cloth and have the ceiling be completely absorbant. i'm still researching this, but in general is this a good or bad idea? the room as of right now is not very good acoustically. if i walk around the room while clapping, there are spots where it rings pretty wildly so i know some treatment has to be done. anyway i'll post more stuff in this thread as my studio progresses so you guys can see how i'm doing.

i've included a picture here of a detailed view of the surface of the cieling tiles. it's about a 1mm layer of flexible thin plastic, which i'm assuming is reflecting the waves as opposed to letting them get absorbed by the fiber backing.
 

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i threw together a quick sketch of how my room is shaped. i'm thinking of setting up my rack by the north-west corner, with my computer desk/monitors/lava lamp next to it on the north wall as close as i can get it to the "center". i'm thinking of putting in a sliding glass door to seal off the open space on the northern wall. for the drums, i'm thinking of putting them centered against the east wall. the guitar gear i'd put along the west wall. how does this arrangement sound to you experts? i normally track everything separately, but if i wanted to record a quick jam session, where would be a good place to put a vocal mic? oh and feel free to re-arrange my room as you see fit, haha. i still have to do some touch-up painting and stuff (possibly re-doing the floor) before i start moving my gear in there, so any suggestions as to the placement of my gear would be much appreciated.

here's the sketch i made, its made to very rough proportions haha... :o
 

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zed32 said:
i'm thinking make a 2'x2' wooden frame, filled with 2" 703, then instead of covering the outside with cloth, cover it with 4 1'x1' 2" thick wedge foam tiles. would that defeat the purpose of the fiberglass underneath?
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I can't see that it would defeat the purpose to add foam to fiberglass. They both absorb sound waves. However, it seems like overkill to me. You've got a lot of wall space to treat, so you should try to get the most coverage you can for your money. If I were you, I'd cover the 703 with fabric, put the 703 in the areas of your most critical need, and save the foam for spot treatment.

That ceiling, by the way, is really creepy looking. In the first pic, it looks like a trypical suspended ceiling. But in the closeup, it looks like the Blob is trying to seep into your room through the suspended ceiling. If the photo is bad and that's not a terribly reflective surface, then go ahead and leave the tiles in place but put insulation above them. If that's a fairly reflective surface, though, you're going to have to replace it with something else before putting a laminate on the floor.
 
the cieling tiles are pretty reflective i'm sure. they aren't porous at all so i dont see any way for sound to go through them to be absorbed, the surface is plastic. the tiles already have a pretty thick layer of insulation above them, but i don't think it's helping any because of the reflectiveness (is that a word?) of the tile surface. after reading a bit deeper into the acoustics FAQ, i think i might go ahead and go with a laminate floor, and then use 703 as cieling tiles in a checkboard pattern with the current tiles, so that way i don't get overkill on the absorbtion on any one surface area. i still want the room to be as live as possible so i can retain somewhat of a "natural" sound on vocals and such. and about the foam on the traps, thanks for the suggestion Hapi, now that i think about it i think that makes more sense. the thing about treating this room is that as you can tell from the sketch, i'm going to have some problems with symmetry. i want to put a couple 703 traps along the eastern wall, but it would be difficult to arrange them in such a way that i can have traps in the same spot along the western wall as well. could this be a major concern? or is symmetry not a top priority in this case? thanks again, and i'll post more pics as the project keep rolling along.

:D
 
zed32 said:
another question i had: i'm probably going to make some fiberglass bass traps for the corners to begin with. however, i was wondering if instead of covering them with cloth, i could cover them with "acoustic foam". i have a bunch of wedge foam tiles and i was thinking maybe they could help with high frequency absorbtion, and then when the lower frequencies pass through the foam, then the fiberglass will do it's part. is this a bad idea?
Click to expand...

I'm no expert, but here's what I've come to understand:
1. If you're using stuff like OC 703 or Roxul, then you're using a broadband attenuator - meaning, it works on the high frequencies just as well as the lows. So, adding foam to them won't make them work better.
2. You don't want to cover your fiberglass/rockwool traps with anything heavy. I've occasionally seen this rule of thumb: if you can't blow air through the fabric, don't use it.

Good luck with your project!
 
zed32 said:
i think i might go ahead and go with a laminate floor, and then use 703 as cieling tiles in a checkboard pattern with the current tiles, so that way i don't get overkill on the absorbtion on any one surface area.
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I think that sounds like a very good solution. Or if you'd rather leave the ceiling in place, you could hang 703 "clouds" in key areas or in a checkerboard pattern. It depends on what you're likely to hate more, cutting 703 to fit your current ceiling mounts or sacrificing head room to the clouds. For what it's worth, I hung clouds in my studio (because I don't have a suspended ceiling), and I don't miss the head room at all. I've got a 7'8" ceiling, just like you, and I'm a little over 6' tall. On the other hand, your original plan will have a much cleaner look.

i want to put a couple 703 traps along the eastern wall, but it would be difficult to arrange them in such a way that i can have traps in the same spot along the western wall as well. could this be a major concern? or is symmetry not a top priority in this case? thanks again, and i'll post more pics as the project keep rolling along.
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If it were my room, I'd start by putting bass traps in all the corners. Thick ones, like 3 or 4 inches. Go floor to ceiling if you can. Then start treating your walls with broadband absorbers, which are usually 1 or 2" thick. You can use foam for this, too, but from what I've heard you'll get much more absorption per dollar with rigid fiberglass.

I think ptownkid's drawing is right on the money. The only thing I'd add is some broadband absorbers on the east and west wall at ear level (when seated) exactly half the distance between your ears to the monitors. I guess that means you'll have to put one on the windowsill.

I don't know how much 703 you've got right now or can afford, but if you need to do this in phases, I'd recommend saving the ceiling for last because you can always throw something cheap on the floor (like carpets and rugs) to tame floor-to-ceiling flutter echo while you save up for your laminate floor and your next batch of 703.
 
thanks guys. ptown, that looks like a pretty decent layout, but might be a bit of a squeeze with the drums set up in the room (this room will be for tracking and mixing). is it a must to keep the desk distanced from the wall like that? if so, i'd have to find a good use for the empty space behind the desk...are those traps on the east and west walls the "slat" type traps? wouldn't i need something more along the lines of broadband absorbtion? there's not much of a corner in the north-east wall intersection, but theres a spot above the doorway where i can hang a small trap where the two walls and ceiling meet.

well i went to Lowes today in search of materials and a fridge among other things, haha. i didn't see any 703 there, which isn't surprising, but i did find a good price on laminate floor stuff. i'm gonna go back there later today and buy some and try to install it tomorrow night. i'm gonna look through the phone book to see if i can find some 703 or 705 for a good price locally. if not, i'll see if i can order it online or something. i have a new idea for the ceiling though. instead of doing a checkboard pattern between the current tiles and fabric-covered 703, i think i'm going to do a checkerboard pattern of some fabric-covered thin MDF board and 703, maybe with alternating colors so it looks kinda cool. fabric-covered MDF (i'm thinking the thinnest possible, so it's not too heavy on the tile holder things) would be good for reflecting right? and it would look better than the "blob seeping through the ceiling" appearance of the current tiles. luckily enough, the cieling tiles are 2'x4' which is the size that most 703 sheets come in pre-cut. ;)

xiaorong, i think you're right. i read about the "breath" test for fabric, and well it's not all too easy to breathe through the foam, and i'm sure the 703 will get the job done much better. i'll just throw up the foam in certain places for looks.

i have enough money right now to get the laminate floor done, and make some corner bass traps. then i can just hang the foam i have for now in places where there are reflections (the mirror method) until i can make 703 some wall traps. just regular pine boards are fine for framing the traps right?

i also need to get some lighting, since the room has no lights in it, i need a couple lamps or something. maybe i can find a decent lava lamp at Lowes when i go back, haha. there's nothing wrong with regular incandescent lamps is there? i know that flourescents tend to be noisy with guitars and stuff like that.

this is pretty exciting stuff, my first "real" home studio setup! i'll be taking some pictures as the flooring goes in, and also as i make the traps. oh and by the way, there arent really any tricks involved in making the corner traps right? i just make a frame, put the sheet of fiberglass in it, and then cover it with fabric i'm thinkin...maybe i'm missing something? anyway thanks again for all the help and suggestions, you guys are awesome. :o :D
 
zed32 said:
well i went to Lowes today in search of materials and a fridge among other things, haha. i didn't see any 703 there,
i'm gonna look through the phone book to see if i can find some 703 or 705 for a good price locally.
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Forget Lowes and drop that phone book, dude. Here is the wisdom you seek: https://homerecording.com/bbs/showthread.php?t=147777

(Okay, okay...you might still need the phone book.)
 
You can also get roxul RHF, which is the same product as 703 and comes in 2x4 sheets as well.

The side absorbers are the slat style as you need to break up the parallel surfaces, that is the number one problem in any space.

The cornerstraps and the slat absorbers/diffusers construction diagrams are in the link i posted above.

No the desk doesn't have to be that far away, but you have a door there...

Laminate flooring is great, but be warned, it's tricky stuff. Due to the fact that is has lips on all edges, an entire row needs to be assembled before you try and attach it to the next. Your room is 10 feet wide, so you need to connect a 10 foot wide piece together and then click it into the previous row. Be careful on your width though, you room may not be perfectly square, and unless you're covering the entire perimeter of the room with 1/4 round, you have to be very careful with your end cuts. Keep in mind too that the way click lock works is that you have to tip it up on the long edge, which means your 10 foot piece can be only as wide as the space you have between the two walls. You can not slip it under the drywall!!! Also, should lay a layer of thin foam with a vapour barrier on one side, wherever you buy will have the stuff, just ask. You'll also need the right tape to seam the foam together, here it's red tuck tape. Finally, I hope you have a miter saw, becasue it makes things soooo much easier. Always cut with the good side facing up and slooooooooooooowly, laminate chips very easy when cutting, even ith a brand new blade. Speaking of chipping, DO NOT try and hammer it into place, you will chip it, trust me. It takes quite a bit of fanagling sometimes becasue you're trying to clikc in a 10 foot piece. Sit in such a way that you can pull it towards you and work foot by foot, you should feel it click. Once you've got a bit click in, you'll have to keep weight on it, either your body or a buddy as you work along.

Hopefully all the shit I learned from doing this with no advice will make your experience better than mine. I learned by screwing up enough pieces, hahaha.

Have fun and keep us posted.

Cheers
 
OK i found a fairly local place that sells rigid fiberglass insulation. he quoted me $3.93/sq.ft. for 2" thick 6lb density with the foil backing. will this stuff work well for bass trapping? or should i just get more of the the 3lb w/o the foil? also another quick question...when i have my reflective floor in place, should i treat the cieling for low frequency absorbtion (thicker, 6lb density panels) or just use regular 2" 3lb board geared more toward high frequencies? is the 3lb is suitable to make bass traps for the corners? i think i have enough money right now to buy enough to trap all the corners, AND do 1/2 my cieling tiles (checkerboard style) with it if i went with the cheapers stuff, or should i just start with really good bass traps in just the corners first? i feel like this stuff has been asked millions of times but its sometimes hard to find straight answeres through searching...

anyway, the floor goes in tomorrow night, and i plan to check out the fiberglass place tomorrow morning. maybe they'll have 6lb mineral wool for cheap, it's the same acoustically right? i'll be taking more pics as my progress continues...thanks!

:D
 
Well, it's pointless to get the foil backed stuff.

As far as traps go, it all depends on how you're going to build them...

Mine are are made with triangle cut pieces stacked 6 feet high inside a frame. If you make em so that you get 4 out of a 2x4 sheet. So hypotetically, it takes 6 sheets to make a corner trap in this way.

Or you make em by jump standing 2 pieces up vertically, but in that case you'd want at least 4 inch.

By the way, $4 a sq ft sounds really expensive. The roxul RHF i got here was like $1.20 a square foot for 3"
 
damn...yeah i knew it sounded pretty expensive. i called 11 places within about 20 miles of where i live and none of em had it. i had a few guys tell me they never heard of it, or that rigid insulation is foam and not fiberglass. then i finally found a place in Sacramento that has it. i think i might head on over there because it seems like my only option...unless theres an online retailer, but i think that shipping would be expensive for the amount that i need...i think i'll try calling SPI tomorrow since i've heard good things, but it's pretty damn far from where i live. but if they can get me a better price....... :confused: :o
 
Go to that link to John Sayers forum that i posted above. There is a section telling you all the places you can get rigid fibeglass from.

Oh yeah, I forgot to mention that I paid 1.20 canadian for that roxul stuff...

I'm sure there's a place that you can get it from, just search for it, don't give up and pay 4 times the price.

Cheers
 
UPDATE: i just talked to SPI in Benicia, CA and they quoted me for 2" 4lb mineral wool would be $.60/sq.ft. they didnt have 3lb except in fibgerglass which is $1.30/sq.ft. i'm assuming 4lb will be pretty close, right? i checked the 4" 6lb mineral wool for bass traps and it was $1.30/sq.ft. for that. looking at the price, i think i'm leaning toward using the mineral wool. it's not going to be a significant difference in quality from the fiberglass is it? i hope not, cuz i think im going to go ahead and order it today...
 
Ptownkid said:
Well, it's pointless to get the foil backed stuff.
Click to expand...
I'm not sure that is true. If I remember correctly it can act as a "membrane".
 
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