Serendipity Records
Well-known member
I don't do this for a living, just on the side
Music you listen to vs. music you make
- Thread starter Serendipity Records
- Start date
TAE
All you have is now
The horror!What would happen in the case of being raised on classical music, polka, & Lawrence Welk with a bit of Bing Crosby thrown in the mix.
For sure I grew up with all of that.....but...I had 3 older sisters. I mean OLDER 8,10 and 14 years old when I was born....
KFWB channel 98 AM radio rocked my house every day.
So all the contemporary hits of the day were played daily growing up...
Then of course Catholic church every Sunday in Latin for the first 12 or so years of my life.....
I was exposed to a wide variety of music...
The two younger sisters played accordion too, until it was not cool to play accordion..
My Mom never considered herself a musician or songwriter but she sang like a bird and wrote some pretty cool nursery rhymes..
Like this one
The Fishies wash the dishes
The doggy scrubs the floor
The horsey does the vacuuming
and the cow has to stay outdoors
Poor cow
Moo moo
Now at 69 I'm still getting melodies and lyric lines dropped into my old foggy brain from the cosmos...just hard to remember them the next day Got a cool one last night...ran out and played it out on the keys to try and imprint it in memory...we'll see...
Serendipity Records
Well-known member
TAE
All you have is now
Played at a funeral a few months back and the lead female singer did a awesome version of the Ave Maria in Latin...good memories...
In LA the church went to English @ 1965 ...We had a Italian Pastor who was quite unique. Played the organ and sang awesome with a baritone voice....Man that guy could sing and inspire.....he was a trailblazer. Fell in love with a widow at the church and got the Papal blessing to leave the priesthood without being chastised for it. Quite a cool role model for living a good life but not accepting the status quo as set in stone.
grimtraveller
If only for a moment.....
I think TAE was making the point that singing in Latin in a church setting helped to give him a wider appreciation of music and its variety.
grimtraveller
If only for a moment.....
I thought it was an interesting statement and wanted to catch the impulse behind it. I may agree, I may disagree, I may be halfway house in between, but I still want to know from the horse's mouth.
Although I'm sure I use or have used them, I'm in part agreement with you. But with a caveat ~ I barely know a I-IV-V from a
I'll take that in two sections.
a]
That's snobbery. Since the advent of Hip-hop and sampling, there have been many, many artists {yes, artists} that didn't play a musical instrument, but for whom music was no longer closed to them, because although they didn't play anything, they were musical and they had music raging about their souls. They often knew and felt way more about rhythm than any of the classical composers of yesteryear and what they were doing {and continue to do} is re-creation. If one has any religious bent, one will acknowledge that this is what God almighty does with that most precious of beings, the human being. God, if allowed, takes someone that is, in his opinion, going the wrong way, and refashions that person to be going God's way {with the person's consent}. The whole sampling idea and action is just as creative and attractive in its own way as the original creation that the sampler takes from to make something new. Unless you know the piece sampled, it is a new song to you. I remember when I first heard Angie Stone's "No more rain in this cloud" back in the 90s, I laughed and said to my mate who was playing it to me "this is a rip-off of Gladys Knight's "Neither One of Us." The electric piano figure is sampled from Gladys' song, but if you listen to both songs, they are entirely different songs.
Sampling is no worse than the rip-offs {ie, witty steals or "borrowing"
} that occur as normality in just about every genre of music. Even the classical composers ripped each other off {skillfully} and repeated themselves {skillfully}.
b]
Two things I'm going to say about that.
Firstly, have you ever heard the actual singing voices of some rappers ? Some of them are awful. But the majority of rappers I've ever heard break into song can clearly sing. And I don't just mean Kanye and Kendrick. I would definitely have them sing on my songs. A number of them have lovely voices.
Secondly, that's major disrespect to say "such a bad voice."
A quick story. Back in '73 when I was 10, a teacher at my school that was also the musical director and organist at the church that was affiliated to the school I was at asked me if I would join the choir. I had never ever thought about my voice before, but even now, I remember his raison d'être ~ he said he thought I had a lovely reading voice and I thought that was quite interesting as he hadn't heard me sing.
I've been singing ever since.
I apply the same thinking to people I've known and know now. I take note of their speaking voices and from there, I speculate what their singing voice would be like. Usually, I'm right.
There are very few rappers I've heard that haven't got cool speaking voices. They just sound so cool, well, at least the American ones do. The British and European ones can sound a bit ropey but that's often because some of them don't sound natural within their music. And having a good speaking voice or rapping voice is as much of an art and skill as having a good singing voice. And even the lamest rapping voice I've heard sounds better than Leonard Cohen and lots of people love him and he had a lot to say with his music as the vehicle.
Truth: most singers cannot rap.
It's a tough skill. It's more than just talking with music blaring away.
YanKleber
Retired
Then there is a big chance.I don't do this for a living, just on the side
Serendipity Records
Well-known member
Sure thing, I just wasn't certain what part of the statement you wanted to explore.
Poetry and music are closely related for sure, but hip-hop is treading the fine line. In fact, if you make the distinction between Rap and Hip-hop as different but related genres, I far prefer Hip-hop, where there is actually such a thing as an instrumental. In fact, I've made sample-based beats myself before (maybe I'll post one soon).
Sure, rappers do sing. But then, why not just make a song? Heck, why speak on top of music that you did not even originate? (mostly being sarcastic right now, I have no problem with reciting clever rhyme on top of music!)
Funny! This slightly notches up my respect for Keith.
So it looks like I have a tendency to offend people when discussing music! Maybe that's because I have too high a standard for music
grimtraveller
If only for a moment.....
I thought it interesting that you used the phrase "I question the legitimacy of." That's a value judgement that points to something being wrong, so I was curious how you would justify the statement.
Hmmm....
I don't particularly like most rap/hip-hop that I hear. Then again, I don't particularly like most C&W that I hear either.
I'm not so sure that hip-hop is treading a fine line. It's another genre form that opens the way to human artistic endeavour and expression.
I don't really make that distinction. They're interchangeable terms like heavy rock and heavy metal and one could even throw hard rock in there. In the 1960s and early to mid-70s, they more or less meant the same thing.
There exist instrumentals in rap and hip-hop because they are essentially the same thing. Although many {most ?} genres have incorporated rapping over the last 40+ years but couldn't be described as hip-hop fusions.
Why should they ? Just as no one should tell you that you should make a particular kind of music.
People endlessly criticized Bob Dylan or Leonard Cohen for their voices {I do so with Len too !} but they clearly felt that what they had to say in song was more important than the vocal delectability they employed to say it. So it is with rappers.
Because to them, it sounds good and they were/are being just as creative to those with ears to hear as Brahms or Schubert were in their day and with their tools.
You know, one thing that amuses me no end on internet forums of just about any kind, is the stock response to disagreement. "Why are you so angry ?" when someone responds with passion. Or the assumption that if someone disagrees with a particular notion and is able to back it up eloquently, that somehow that person must be offended.
No offence {see what I did there ?}, but honestly, I don't get offended. Even if you were to call me a stupid uppity jungle-bunny, I wouldn't be offended. I might even be amused.
I have that kind of arcane humour.
No, I don't think you cause offence, you just have some opinions that may be disagreed with. I may well question your starting point or points along the way ~ and what's wrong with that ?
Well.....
That's nuanced. On one hand, you may be absolutely right. On the other, your high standard might actually be a weakness and a low standard because it prevents you from real creativity and recognizing creativity that you don't particularly approve of. It could be that it actually closes you off from avenues of adventure and creativity, keeps you in a straitjacket but masquerades behind a "high standard." It's hard to say.
Many of those with an optimum amount of musical theory at their behest, nevertheless don't create. They replicate with great skill and what they replicate is lovely. But they don't create. Whereas many rappers do.
TalismanRich
Well-known member
I know that there are rappers/hip-hop artists who can sing. The problem is that they insist on the barrage of spoken lyrics that for me has less musical content than 10th century Gregorian Chant. I like melody and harmony. I deplore the way they make "beats" and then just past stuff together. The sampled "clap" sound irritates me. In short, there is extremely little in the genre that I find even listenable.
Yes, I know I'm an old codger, and it's not just rap/hip-hop that turns me off. I don't care for the gutteral screaming death metal either. It's simply not appealing.
Yes, I know I'm an old codger, and it's not just rap/hip-hop that turns me off. I don't care for the gutteral screaming death metal either. It's simply not appealing.
Serendipity Records
Well-known member
We're on the same page!
+
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Going to further my argument: why is rap even considered a musical talent? Just because people listen to it doesn't mean it's music. You would be hard pressed to deny that rappers are just glorified podcasters -- DMX is the doomsday version of Andrew Tate, for example; Necro is a verbose Joe Rogan knock-off -- and enjoy foisting their sadistic fantasies on high school kids.
I wish Gil Scott-Heron were still around and experimenting with a blend of spoken poetry and music. Do consider that music is commonly seen as the universal language, but language is not a style of music.
Check out my satirical take on Hip-hop beat-making here:
View attachment Hip-hop satire.mp3
Production quality is (almost) purposefully
Cheers
grimtraveller
If only for a moment.....
Yes, but at the same time, while the spoken lyrics have no melodic content, they act as a rhythmic counterpoint and focus and there is music going on. It's no less musical than spoken poetry put to music.
Sometimes, it's awful, sometimes it isn't.
I like this guy's album from 1969:
He's a pretty out-there priest. But he was pretty ahead of the curve although lots of people had put spoken word to music and had been doing so for years. With Father Pat, I find myself listening to the band more than him, although I do appreciate where he was coming from when I focus on what he's actually saying.
Music for me is essentially melody, harmony and rhythm/beat. I love melodies and I hear harmony all the time, particularly when they're not in the song I'm listening to or thinking of. The lack of melody is for me rap's greatest weakness and minus. And its lack of rhythmic variation and scope for musical improvisation runs a close second. And the absence of room for harmony runs a close third.
I wouldn't do that for myself {although arguably, I've done it musically}, but I've come to respect that way of putting music together. There's a skill and art to it and the best part is that I don't have to listen to it !
Same here. I'm one of those awkward so & so's that would rather record 5-10 sets of claps than use an already existing one.
Couldn't agree more. But I feel the same way about Mariah Carey and Whitney Houston. And gaming music and Tik-Tok music.
I long ago just got down to it and said I'm going to be honest about music. There are 3 kinds of music: music I like, music I don't like and music I'm indifferent to. I can't stand Kraftwerk but they were inventive for what they were doing.
Because it is. Music travels a wide spectrum. I have no problem with there being some forms of music that one may hate. I can't stand some dissonant classical music. I can't bear some dissonant jazz. I'd chuck much cookie-cutter electronica. But it's still music.
That would be an argument I would go with wholeheartedly were it not for the fact that music is an intrinsic part of rap/hip-hop. It may not be in the way you want it to be, but it is.
Now, I personally would do things a very different way if I were a rapper. I love music and I'm stubborn and cling to originality, so the music wouldn't be cut-ups of anyone else's stuff. I'd write my own music like I do now. In fact, I've written a couple of raps and the music is way more important than the rap. But I like rap conceptually and see it as, as valid a musical form as any other. I like some free jazz and avant-garde stuff and a lot of both are arguably unmusical. But what is 'musical' and unmusical' ?
I wouldn't be. I don't see them that way at all.
That goes for possibly 80% of the artists that have released songs over the last 75 years ! I could say that about "Michelle" by the Beatles.....
I adore Gil's stuff, I have 5 of his albums, his autobiography {sort of} and I saw him twice in concert. Funnily enough, when I saw him in a brilliant gig at the Commonwealth Institute back in '83, my wife was at the same gig although I didn't meet her for another 12½ years. A woman I was "involved" with was at the gig too.
Gil was a man who sometimes indulged in rap. I prefer his style way more than any rapper I've ever heard. But he rapped. Rap just meant chatting. Reggae had its own equivalent which was called 'toasting'. There is no essential difference between spoken word poetry put to music and rap. One could argue that one is more 'musical' but I leave that to those that want to get involved in that one !
Language is not a style of music but it and the voice are inextricably linked forever more to music.
Some languages are quite musical though.
Pinky
and The Brain...
Same for me. Although the caveat is that a lot of my music enjoyment time has been with prog and specifically prog metal in recent years, and the music I make and aspire to make is far from that. This is 99% a result of me not living in my closet playing my bass and guitar for hours endlessly everyday to get good enough to produce respectable music in that genre. But I certainly enjoy that someone does! lol
Serendipity Records
Well-known member
They created an outlet to express rather non-mainstream views that would land them in trouble if they didn't have such a following (or maybe precisely because of their following). No, I don't have any problem with fringe opinions.
Yay man!I adore Gil's stuff, I have 5 of his albums, his autobiography {sort of} and I saw him twice in concert. Funnily enough, when I saw him in a brilliant gig at the Commonwealth Institute back in '83, my wife was at the same gig although I didn't meet her for another 12½ years. A woman I was "involved" with was at the gig too.
Only difference here is that I boil music down to the first 2 categories. Though I heard a Whitney Houston song the other day and despite the 808s and fully electronic backing (which I generally abhore), it was a jam.
Anyway, I'm letting go of whatever we disagree on. In real life we would be awesome bandmates
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grimtraveller
If only for a moment.....
They make for friendly and interesting swapping of views.
I think we would too. I'd be tapping your classical influences and knowledge for all they were worth.
Seeker of Rock
Let’s Go Brandon!
Seeker of Rock
Let’s Go Brandon!
Great thread subject! I play and write in an all original metal band so what I write for and in that band is influenced no doubt by my favorites of the genre. But what I write solo on my own is completely different from material for the band, but is still along the veins of some of my favorite bands I listen to and grew up with.
Serendipity Records
Well-known member
"Rhiannon" is also a 2-chord song -- probably the only 2-chord song on my top 5 favs!
grimtraveller
If only for a moment.....
I've often wondered why music critics down the years have gotten so bent out of shape about the number of chords in a song. A song you love is a song you love, regardless of how many chords, notes or crotchets it exhibits, whether it modulates or undulates or has a flute solo or lute solo.
Or no solo. Or even a beginning......
Or no solo. Or even a beginning......