Music Theory for Songwriting

Learning theory is very important IMO, but is no substitute for genuine human emotion. What makes a great song is being able to capture that human emotion so closely that when someone else hears your song, they feel those emotions as well. Theory helps with understanding how to create simple moods or feelings by playing certain changes or intervals. I think the ultimate goal of most songwriters is to learn theory to the point of being able to express their emotions musically, without really too much effort.
 
I'm all for learning the nuts and bolts of music. It's great to know understand what you are hearing.

But the title of this thread "music theory for songwriting" right off the bat rubbed me the wrong way - like somehow if you learned something out of a book you could write songs. What an idiotic thought. :(

I divide theory into two halves: the manmade 1/2, which includes note and chord names, agreements on how to write music on paper etc... and those are good to know but there's no depth or even real reality to that stuff. It's all bullshit man has made up that you use to communicate. Language.

The other half - the part that nature lays on the table, falls into two sub categories: time and the harmonic series. That stuff is 100% real. Man did not make any of it up. It's the physics of the universe and I find that stuff incredibly interesting because it's true and how much stuff do you find in this world that is actually 100% true?
 
All I know, theory-wise, is the universal key. That is, I know a few scales and I could tell you which notes sound harmonious together and which don't, which chord progressions pop up all the time and which are less common, and I know a few dyads. (I'm pretty poor at articulating this; can you tell?)

I think my knowledge of this, however limited, has helped me grow as a songwriter. You know how they say, "Learn the rules before you break them?" Well, as weird as it sounds, my more insane compositions have come more easily to me after I learned a bit about music theory. Because, since I have a basic grasp of the building blocks of music, whether to follow the common patterns is a conscious choice, not something I do out of habit.
 
Any theory you learn, experience or unconsciously stumble upon will work in the background of your brain while you're writing.....

Acquired understanding which is applied to a task. That's theory be it established or otherwise.
Yup !
Anyone that sings or plays an instrument or writes songs has some grasp of theory ~ even if they don't call it that. Yes, there are degrees of that grasp, ranging from all the way to very little.
I'll say it again ~ there is a universe of difference between theory and rules and in my observation, many of us confuse the two.
 
Hi I'm new here. but here's my 2 cents..


I totally agree with grimtraveller and rayc,

I really don't understand the two camps..

Why does it have to be either/or, one or the other..
isn't it really a bit of both..

Isn't it true that even if you play something from the heart, you still apply some set of rules? Something that tells you that THAT particular progression sounds better than if you take a note half a tone higher?
Didn't you LEARN that.. either from books or experience?

Isn't that also applying the rules of music.. Even if you don't know that you do?

Theory is merely a way to find out those rules and make them known to the world..

HOW you use those rules (adhere to them or defy them (breaking them is absolutely out of the question as a rule can never be broken: you either go with it or against it.. yet the rule itself will never break) ) depends entirely upon the person/writer/musician..

Sometimes you got that absolutely fabulous progression in your head.. and you've got another prgression that you want to throw into the song as well..
But you just can't figure out how to add them up.. well it's often quite usefull to stick to the rules to put those together..

And how do you get to KNOW those rules: you learn from what others found out: thus you learn theory..

Music follows a set of rules: wether it sounds good ro not depends on the listener..
Theory is just trying to find out why it did sound the way it did.. and learning from it..


Theory is a TOOL to know the RULES of the game called music..
HOW or WHETHER you use this TOOL doesn't change the rules applied...
 
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Three notes go into a bar

A C, E-flat and G go into a bar. The bartender says, "sorry, but we don't serve minors." So E-flat leaves, and C and G have an open fifth between them. After a few drinks, the fifth is diminished and G is out flat.

F comes in and tries to augment the situation, but is not sharp enough.

D comes in and heads for the bathroom saying, "Excuse me. I'll just be a second." Then A comes in, but the bartender is not convinced that this relative of C is not a minor.

Then the bartender notices B-flat hiding at the end of the bar and says, "Get out! You're the seventh minor I've found in this bar tonight."

E-Flat comes back the next night in a three-piece suit with nicely shined shoes. The bartender says, "you're looking sharp tonight. Come on in, this could be a major development." Sure enough, E-flat soon takes off his suit and everything else, and is au natural.

Eventually C sobers up and realizes in horror that he's under a rest. C is brought to trial, found guilty of contributing to the diminution of a minor, and is sentenced to 10 years of D.S. without Coda at an upscale correctional facility.
 
My Cents.

Theory is needed if you want to communicate to other musicians. e.g. Teaching.

But if you create music just for yourself, there's nearly no point learning them.

Mikael Akerfeldt of Opeth is an example. The most flexible musician ever. He doesn't know theory (or am I wrong?).

And Rusty Cooley, a guitar teacher, a shredder. For me he is boring compared to other shredders (Jeff Loomis, Yngwie, Stephan Forte, etc.)
 
Damn,where was I 2 weeks ago. Oh well. Howard Roberts put the whole theory thing in a cool context. "music at the speed of thought" learn the theory in a practical setting and use it as a tool to ge the sounds in your head out in your playing.
 
My theory was every issue of...

Guitar For The Practicing Musician
Guitar world
Guitar School
Guitar Extra
Guitar player
And many other mags as well

My older brother worked at a magazine distributer and I used to get all the issues for free...:cool:

I had access to tons of info on how to play (and theory) when I started playing at age 13.

Not only did I learn some theory however I learned a ton of songs...eventually I didnt need the Tab/sheet music to learn songs anymore and could learn them by ear...then eventually I started writing my own songs.

Guitar magazines like "Guitar For The Practicing Musician" was a major factor in learning how to play quickly...and the tabs and theory were very acurate.

Make a long answer short...I think a combo of learning songs and some theory can be helpfull although I enjoyed the learning songs part much more and couldnt really get into the theory part much...I think its up to the individual if theory is for them or not however learning some cant hurt.
 
The only person who would be able to write something with "no knowledge of theory at all" would be someone who has sat down at an instrument for the very first time and had never heard any other music in their life. That first piece they wrote would be using "no theory at all." After that, though, they would know some theory.

Even Greg Le Bullshit knows plenty of theory; he just doesn't call it by the name that lots of other people do. But I'm sure that he knows that if he plays a song with chords that go "G - C - G - D", and someone says, "let's play it in the key of A instead," the new chords would be "A - D - A - E".

He's familiar with the sound of moving from G to C even if he doesn't know that it's known as a "I chord moving to IV," and he knows that moving from G to Ab sounds very different. And I bet if I played him a G chord, and then played him a C chord (without him looking), he'd be able to repeat it right away because he's familiar with that relationship and knows what it sounds like.

People that "know theory" simply know names for these types of relationships. But the most important thing of all is developing your ear. IMHO, it's much more important to be able to hear or sing a minor 3rd, for example, than to be able to write G to Bb on paper --- or to hear/recognize a V/V chord in the key of G than to be able to write A C# E.

There are great writers on both sides of the camp:

"no theory": Beatles, Cobain, Dylan (I'm guessing... I don't really know for sure), etc.
"know theory": Sting, Paul Simon, Rivers Cuomo (Weezer), BRIAN WILSON, etc.

I remember specifically hearing McCartney one time talking about "From Me to You." The song is in C and, for the most part, sticks to diatonic chords like C, Am, G -- though it does have F7, which is technically not diatonic to C, but it's a very common blues sound.

Anyway, the brigde moves to a Gm chord (I got arms that long to hold you...). And he said, "We'd never used that sound before ... a Gm in the key of C." And that's exactly what I'm talking about. He may not know that chord is a minor v chord, or more likely the ii chord in a brief modulation to/tonicization of F (Gm-C7-F), but he knows/knew the sound of it, and he could repeat it in different keys (evidenced in "I Wanna Hold Your Hand" and others).

And that's my point. The moment you start becoming familiar with the musical language (which is almost immediately), you're employing theoretical concepts. Knowing the names for these is just a personal choice. The most imporant thing is to be able to hear them and have them stored in your library of known sounds.

You can study all the theory you want, but if you never develop your ear, the theory knowledge won't help you except on paper. I met plenty of people when I went to UNT to study music that knew plenty of theory, but had very untrained ears. And, IMO, having untrained ears is just as much of a crutch (if not more so) than "not knowing theory."

Anyway, that's my two cents.
 
Oops ... Sorry about that. I really thought that's what it was. I remembered it incorrectly.

lol great post man.

this is exactly what i was getting at but not quite so eloquently.

i think most if not all people play with "theory" by ear because it's what sounds good.

certain chords "naturally" move into/setup other chords, others sound like shit, this can be quantified and derived by ear and analyzed by theory.

but i've found most of the time diatonic progressions mixed with standard subsitutions covers 99% of western music

the main reason i want to do this (study theory) is to help me find the same chord "movements" but in different keys, voicings, and genres.
 
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