Multitracking and musicianship

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Grotius

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I'm new at multitrack recording; right now I'm working on a Mozart piano concerto (me on piano, orchestra via MIDI and soundfonts/DXi in Sonar 2.0) and a jazz tune (Miles Davis' "So What"). I may have some rock/pop in me too.

Anyway, I'm wondering: in what order do you recommend that I lay down jazz (or rock) tracks? Drums first? The trouble is that drums are, for me, the hardest part. ("Dammit Jim, I'm a pianist, not a drummer!") I've had some success starting with the bass track, but I'm curious what others do.

Also, um, how do you stay together, say on fast 16th notes in a Mozart concerto? Yeah, yeah, use the metronome. I try. My mix still sounds like mush. <grin>
 
Ya just have to do it until it's right, kiddo. It'll be good for you as a musician.
 
Heh heh, well said. The whole metronome thing is *really* good for me as a musician. When you play solo piano, you can get away with a few creative (read unintended, lazy) tempo changes. Multitracking definitely requires more discipline.
 
I should know it. I did a lot of noodling around by myself, and I really noticed it when I tried multitracking. It's a good thing I eased myself into that before I got my bands rolling.
 
Drums first then bass.

Which concerto are you recording? Sounds interesting.
 
I'll bet that niether of them (Mozart or Davis) used a click.......
 
For a standard rock track, if you have the inputs, it's a good way to record the first time evrythiong at once, but only keep the drums. A method I use to record rock bands: you put the drummer in the performance room and you record him, but while you record him you let the other players of the band in the control room and record the guitars and bass DI, and also a pilot vocal. Don't worry if the guitar sounds shitty, you'll erase those pilot tracks later. Those pilot tracks help the drummer with the song structure, and most drummers also feel more comfortable playing with a band instead of just playing to a click.

But when you're on your own it is off course more difficult:) . I would just play the main guitar part and some vocal pilot to a clicktrack. Afterwars you can drum along with those first tracks and still change them later on.
 
though I'm new at all this if I run into a group that follows something like a piano or guitar then I would record that first and then have everyone else keep tempo with that. . . yeah the person would atleast have to have a decient sense of tempo or use a click track but it works great if the band is hired and doesn't know the music. When I play drums I prefer to go last too because I play tighter with everything.

Typically though I go drums and rythem guitar, then bass, then lead, then vocal. . . drummers don't really pay attention to the bass anymore. . . all the ones I've worked with follow the rythem guitar, expecially live. it's sort of like drums and bass used to accent eachother. . . now drums and rythem guitar accent eachother and bass is supposed to try to keep up. :)

peace
sam
zekthedeadcow@hotmail.com
http://www.Track100.com
 
Hey Grotius - Long time no hear. So, after all the angst what did you end up getting/doing for gear? Are you remoting upstairs to the computer (Sonar?) or what?

Anyway, here's my version of "playing with yerself, you nasty boy" - I build a click track that is custom to the song structure, assuming I know what that is before I start - In the case of the 1/16 note bit, I would do a measure or two of click track with a drum patch, choosing something really obnoxious (cutting) like a clave for the accent beats, then something milder like a closed hihat for the inbetween beats - maybe add a kick drum, sorta overall just build a basic drum track, but without the fills, cymbals, etc - This way, you can get the feel of the song and put as high resolution of an intermediate (non-accented) click as you need to maintain accuracy when tracking. Then, when you're happy with the structure of your 1-2 measures, SAVE IT ! By that, I mean, start a separate folder with these custom "scratch tracks", maybe even going so far as to have separate sub-folders for different styles, etc)

Now, for the song at hand, copy the measure(s) as many times as it takes to be sure that the click track is longer than the song will be. The closer to your intended final drum track this "click" track is, the better feel you will achieve with other tracks. Just keep in mind that this track will eventually be thrown away.

Next, depending on the song structure, I usually record either a rhythm key part or bass. Any parts you do as MIDI can be easily replaced with other sounds, which can be handy for things like string parts (gee, it sounded good by itself...??!? )

In the case of original compositions, here's a trick I use to keep from forgetting what chord change comes next, and when - I use Samplitude for audio, Cake 9 for MIDI, running on the same machine - but the concept should work for any program that lets you scale the waveform view to your working screen area.

1. Get your click/drum track going as above.

2. Do either the keys/chordal track or bass. Keys with chord structure usually works better for me.

3. Truncate the click to about 4 measures past the end of the music.

4. scale the screen for maximum size of the waveform view while still showing the whole song on screen. The larger the monitor, the better.

5. Just above the click track, place a piece of 3M Videocassette Relabeling tape, or other removable (NOT masking tape) horizontally the full width of the waveform track. I usually fold a small tab under on one end of the tape, so it can be removed and stored stuck to the side of the monitor or wherever.

6. Play back the click and chord or bass track, making tic marks on the tape with a fine tip pen, precicely at the cursor, everywhere there is a chord change. It helps to make these alternately short, medium, and tall.

7. Play back again, as many times as necessary, noting chord names at each tic mark, until you have them all noted.

8. Now, you'll have advance notice of when/where/what chord is next just by watching the cursor as you play in the succeeding tracks.

9. Save this strip until you are finished with the song. If you work on other stuff inbetween, you can get back to scale by re-loading the song, maxing out the waveform view, putting the strip back on the monitor, and tweaking position/scale so the chord change marks line up. (I make LARGE tic marks at the exact start and end of the CLICK track to make this easier to line up.)

10. Replace any tracks you don't like, including re-doing the drum track to match the finished "vibe" of the song.

11. For classical, just do an accented click with as high a resolution as it takes to stay with the beat. Any drum tracks will likely be more orchestral in nature anyway, and can be recorded after the other tracks. (tymps, cymbal crashes, etc.)

Drums via MIDI can be a real bitch for non-drummers. I'm lucky in that I play everything I need for compositions, albeit some in a "songwriter" sort of quality... Here is my take on drum quality, from low to high (depending on your own rhythm capability)

1. program drums single step. Sounds like DEVO on Valium...

2. play drum patch from keyboard, first pass kick/snare, second pass tom fills, 3rd pass cymbals, etc, then edit out the "impossibles" - things that couldn't have been played by a real drummer unless he was an octopus, such as hihat during fills, snare backbeat during fills, toms during cymbal crashes, etc - sounds better, especially if you DONT quantize and have some rhythm. You can at least, if you are using a velocity-sensitive keyboard, get some dynamics going.

3. get a set of decent drumpads and brain, and learn to play them. This sounds more real, and is light years FASTER than any of the above. If you have the cymbals and quiet room, recording cymbals live with condensers improves tremendously on this method.

4. Build a floated room, buy a drumkit (recording oriented, they are usually easier to set up for minimum buzz/rattle, etc) and learn to play real drums. (Most expensive way yet) This has the added advantage of stress relief - beating a set of skins is more socially acceptable than beating your boss/wife/dog/goldfish...

Hope this marathon helped - these are just some of the tricks I've found to be useful... Steve
 
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The metronome is pretty important. Basically, I do a rough cut of guitar/singing over the click; then play drums to the rough cut and the click; then re-track bass, guitar, vox over the drums (and click, depending on my mood). Definitely do the drums first if you're not a strong drummer; it's murder to try to play drums over completed tracks that may be a little off.
 
Man, I love this board. Lots of great advice in this thread. Some responses:

BrettB, laaronx, Zek: I am a one-man band, but I can play keyboards, acoustic and electric rhythm (but not lead) guitar, and electric bass (I was a bass player in a band in high school). Too bad I don't do drums -- yet. My brother is a drummer, and once upon a time he gave me a few lessons, but I am basically a novice. I went and whacked on a $700 electric drum kit at Guitar Center the other day, and I loved it. I was even half tempted to buy a real snare or tom and buy a practice book or something. But my brother always emphasizes the importance of lessons....

Sennheiser: I'm recording Mozart's 21st Piano Concerto in C Major, the second movement of which is quite famous (and probably a tad overplayed). I've always dreamed of playing a concerto with an orchestra, and through the magic of MIDI, suddenly I can! First I lay down the strings and woodwinds with MIDI (in Sonar 2.0), using SoundFonts through the Live Synth Pro Dxi. I'm also including a 'rough' piano track via MIDI, but I'll replace it with a live acoustic track (Bluthner 6'10" concert grand).

Mixing this sucker is just a blast! We're talkin' a dozen different instruments, plus my "lead" piano, plus reverb, constantly changing dynamics, pizzacato, legato, you name it. And it's just a hoot to play a concerto -- it's a different kind of classical piano, and I'm the star of the show. Fortunately for me, Mozart did not write a percussion part (!), so I'm finding the MIDI tracking pretty easy. EXCEPT for that pesky viola. Does anyone know how to get Sonar to translate the viola's funny tenor clef to a standard treble clef? It's not a straight "+10 key" transposition; some notes are +11, some +10. The irony here is that I own (but can't play) a viola that I inherited from my grandfather, who was an accomplished viola player.

Knightfly: Thanks for your very thorough and helpful response. You asked about my gear. I've been doing audio recording for the past 6 weeks or so; I've recorded several "birthday CDs" for family members -- basically solo piano and acoustic guitar interspersed with interviews. For audio, my signal chain is 2 Oktava MC012s into a dbx386 preamp (which has SPDIF outs), then into the SPDIF port on my laptop's Extigy (in the next room, where it is inaudible to me). It's a HUGE improvement over the minidisc I started with, but I still want to upgrade that Extigy. And preamp. And mikes. <grin> I have Sonar 2.0 for MIDI on my PC; I plan to buy an Audiophile 2496 for it this weekend.

Anyway, thanks for the inventive suggestions about monitoring chord changes and the like. As for drums, I have been trying to follow your method "2" -- using my MIDI-capable electric piano, which does have velocity control. But I suck. Honestly, I sound better on a real drumkit, or on one of those electric kits. If I stick with this, I'm going to buy a real cymbal and/or snare, and maybe one of those MIDI drum kits (can you recommend any?), and maybe even take drum lessons. Incidentally, I noticed that drum loops/Frooty Loops/etc are not on your list. Currently, loops sound better than anything I make myself, but I do hope to improve.
 
That sounds like a very involved project. Good luck to you. That really must be a mixing nightmare. Symphony dynamics are really varied and many times it happens very suddenly.

Are you using any compression? If so what brand and what sort of settings are you using for the loudest parts?

Just recording a five piece band keeps me hopping. And like you, I play all the parts. Kind of reminds me of how Lindsey Buckingham recorded his songs on Tusk. He actually did sing in the bathroom on one cut.

Have you ever played any Gershwin? Someone mentioned him in another thread. The guy was a genius. I'm still working on "Rhapsody in Blue" after ten years of trying.
 
Hey, Grotius - good start on a workable system - if you're like nearly everybody else here, you'll still be "upgrading" when they're patting you in the face with a shovel...

"As for drums, I have been trying to follow your method "2" -- using my MIDI-capable electric piano, which does have velocity control. But I suck. Honestly, I sound better on a real drumkit, or on one of those electric kits. If I stick with this, I'm going to buy a real cymbal and/or snare, and maybe one of those MIDI drum kits (can you recommend any?), and maybe even take drum lessons. Incidentally, I noticed that drum loops/Frooty Loops/etc are not on your list. Currently, loops sound better than anything I make myself, but I do hope to improve."

When you say "MIDI-capable electric piano", are you talking weighted action or synth-type action? The faster synth type action works better for #2 than others do, at least for me. It's faster and more accurate for timing. And, you'll suck til you practice with a metronome and compare your tracks to the metronome. When I use that method, I make sure my drum patch follows the more normal note assignments where C=kick, D=snare, F#G#A# are closed, mid and open hihat, C# is a cymbal, etc - with practice, you can get to where you play kick and snare with the left hand (3 for kick, 2 for snare most of the time) and closed.mid, and open hat with the right hand (2.3.4 repectively) - using this method, I can lay down a basic drum track with kick, snare, and hat in one pass. Then the fills, finally cymbals, then editing the non-octopussy stuff.

Real cymbals are cool, don't buy any you haven't bashed with a stick, EVER ! ( No two REAL cymbals sound the same, even the exact same model. Only close...)

I would not recommend buying a snare unless you have just one snare sound you want real. At $300 or so each, there's about $20,000 worth of snares in your average drum machine. Getting yours to sound as good as the worst one in the machine can be a challenge. (Watch the flames from this one...)

for electronic drums, I would recommend a "brain" with at least 4 outputs, so you can get a stereo spread and still treat the kick and snare separately. I recently replaced a Drumkat system with the Roland V-Custom kit, but with upgraded cymbals/hat/extra tom/larger kick pad - shoulda done it years ago. The Roland brains from the TD-8 up have multiple outputs. The TD-6 on the less expensive kits only has one stereo pair. The V-pads feel great, play great, are quiet, (but then, I've been using the old hard plastic roland triangular pads, so anything would sound quiet) - The downside is I have about $3000 in this kit - the upside is I can hold off on a floated drum room for a few more years...

The reason I didn't mention loops is that I think loops are for people who can't play. I prefer my own ideas for music, since it's my own music. Also, I don't do loops for any instrumental tracks I'm going to keep, for the same reason.

Gotta go for now, keep practicing "keydrums", you'll either suck less or get used to it... Steve
 
Just wanted to mention that thou I don't loke loops now I think Acid is great for creating scratch drum track. Just use single hits. I made scratch guitar recording to a metronome then put it in Acid 2.0 (got it free at GC with Acid Latin :) ) and made scratch drum track to it.
came out great IMHO. (i can post the result if you are interested)

now I need to find same way to do it in MIDI so I can swap sounds quickly that would be golden.

cheers
 
"I think Acid is great for creating scratch drum track." - I agree completely - loops can be really handy tools, as long as you lose 'em when you're done with the song. IMO, if you're going to write serious music, you shouldn't kill any variations or spontaniety. If you can't say something a different way each time around, shut up and end the song. This is why, even if a song sounds pretty cool with a looped drum track, I'll re-record the drums after the fact, in one continuous pass, sorta like a real band??!? What a bizarre concept... Steve
 
Fed: By all means, post your drum track. I'd love to hear it.

Sennheiser: Yep, mixing a MIDI/SoundFont symphony orchestra (the GSO, "Grotius Symphony Orchestra") is a big job. Fortunately, this particular concerto is not as loud as, say, a Beethoven symphony; more often than not, the orchestra is playing softly while the while the piano does its thing. So no compression yet. But mixing the soft parts is a challenge; you want to be able to hear every instrument without any one dominating. My oboe section and first violins seem particularly frisky.

Gershwin rocks. Or, I should say, swings. <g> Yes, I have played "Rhapsody in Blue", and I love it to death, but parts of it are very technically demanding. Also, it bums me out when I play it and someone says, "oh, he's playing the theme from United Airlines." I've heard that Gershwin's Preludes are fun to play, but I haven't tried them.

Knightfly: I have a 10-year-old Technics 88-key electric piano with what feels like a piano style action, not a synthesizer action. I love the action for most MIDI applications; as a pianist, it's what I like. But as you say, it may not be ideal for MIDI drumming. Still, I will try the keyboard technique you described.

Thanks for the advice on cymbals and snares. As to electric kits, the models under $1000 (e.g., Roland V-Club) generally seem to come with a two-output brain. Can one get a cheaper set like the V-Club but match it with a four-output brain? And should I take lessons if I buy one of those things, or can I learn on my own? I seem to have at least some talent for it, even though I currently suck. :-)

Also, do you use your onboard drum sounds, or do you rely on an external sequencer such as your software?
 
For me that tune is not only technically challenging, it's almost technically impossible.

Yeah, I get a chuckle out of the masses who think that one of the greatest composers of all time writes jingles for some ad agency.

Too many people today have no appreciation for really great works of music.
 
"As to electric kits, the models under $1000 (e.g., Roland V-Club) generally seem to come with a two-output brain. Can one get a cheaper set like the V-Club but match it with a four-output brain? And should I take lessons if I buy one of those things, or can I learn on my own? I seem to have at least some talent for it, even though I currently suck. :-)

Also, do you use your onboard drum sounds, or do you rely on an external sequencer such as your software?"

I bought my V-drums from GC in Portland, and they worked with me completely. I got the V-custom set, which already had the TD-8 brain, but I upgraded the HiHat to the true dual trigger one, added an extra tom, upped the kick drum size, etc, and their salesman just looked up prices and charged me the difference in each case.

Lessons are a good idea, IF you can find a teacher who can knock your socks off AND actually TEACH. That is a difficult combination to find in my experience. Usually, if a guy is a monster player, he is more likely to be an egotistical prick or else hasn't a clue how to help someone else learn to do what he does. The other extreme is the really nice guy who can teach you paradiddles and flams on a snare, but isn't sure what a HiHat even is - Your area may be better for this, you would just have to try some teachers out. Myself, I am 95% self-taught. I've watched other drummers play, listened to tons of music, practiced with and without a click track, played live when our drummer was late to gigs, and of all that I think practice is the main thing. My theory on practice is that the old saying "practice makes perfect" isn't the whole story. More like, "perfect practice makes perfect." By that, I mean that you can go really fast up til the part you can't play yet, flub that, start over, ad infinitum... Or, you can slow down, to the point that you play one note per minute if necessary, and learn what you are trying to do perfectly at slow speed, then slowly increase speed but never to the point of making a mistake, until you can finally play the exact thing you hear in your head at the speed you want it - I think this works with anything that requires hand/eye or hand/ear coordination. Once you succeed in teaching your body to do a task, then your brain can just get out of the way and let it happen. This is how most musicians I know can play so fast and not make mistakes - the mind is only there to tell the body which "subroutine" to execute next. Sooo, if you practice drums slowly enough to get it right, and keep adding "licks" to your repertoire, eventually you'll even fool yourself into thinking you're a drummer (worked for me... )

Drum sounds; I currently use an Emu Pro-Cussion, an Alesis HR-16, drum sounds from the Roland XP-50, and even an old Korg piano module with some cards that have some cool jazz/funk drum sounds. This is part of why I use an 8 x 8 MIDI interface in my system - 3 different ways to control drums, 3 different keyboard controllers, 4 MIDI keyboards, 5 or 6 other MIDI modules, a hardware AND software sequencer, both an analog and a digital mixer, etc - If I daisychained all that stuff I would have to wait a week to hear some of the parts... Steve
 
Grotius said:
Fed: By all means, post your drum track. I'd love to hear it.

Ok if you insist :)
Here is a link to mp3. keep in mind that this is a work in progress and only made to test ideas.

The drum track was made in Acid 2.0 with individual hits not loops. the only prat that's from the loop is when HH opens and closes during the verse. I cut that out of the loop. One cool thing was that after I was done I could save all the separate drums and symbals to seperate wav files and mix in another application

128 kb/s 5mb

or at 256kb/s 9mb


256 sounds better and you will need to cranck it a little since
the levels are not too hot.

cheers
 
Fed: "Lyubov" -- Prekrasno! Ya nehorosho ponyimayu po-russki, no mne ochen' nravitsa vasha rabota. (Er, kak skazat "song"? All I remember is "mi pili i pyeli...") Pretty darn good for a "work in progress." Nice guitar work and vocals. If I listen to it enough times, I may be able translate most of it; four years of college Russian should be worth *something*.

Sennheiser: Yes, there are some parts of the Rhapsody that I just have to "fake." It's a quite difficult piece. There are "easier" arrangements available, but it's not the same. (grin)

Knightfly: I'm very encouraged to hear that you are mostly self-taught. I may try to find a teacher for the basics, but I doubt I have the patience for an extended series of lessons. Decades of piano and guitar lessons have left me weary of lessons. (grin) And I agree with you wholeheartedly about the importance of high-quality practice, including slow practice and metronome work. If I just "play" the piano for an hour, I hardly improve at all, whereas half an hour of rigorous work can pay big dividends.

Your drumset looks great. Me, I like the look of that V-Club, or maybe the Hart entry-level kit. I'll see if my GC can "work with me" on customization as yours did...
 
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