More beneficial Mic or Premap question please help.....

[snsguy]

First I hope that I am putting this post in the right place. I appoligize if I am not. I am looking for some help and some suggestions. I am using the motu 8pre, I have a sure KSM27 microphone a closet which i converted into a poor mans iso booth for dead space. I am trying to produce some better vocals for my stuff then what I am getting right now. I've tried different positions and sorts and I'm just not pleased with the sound. I have a very unique voice and was wondering what would be more benificial to me right now out of the optiions I have. The options that I'm looking at are these. I have about $1600 to spend. I am wondering would it be better to buy a better mic that specifically fits my voice and maybe get some acoustic treatments for my mixing area that I could then also do some tracking in also or is it more bennificial to spend the money on a great mic preamp. I know that the pres in the motu aren't the greatest but I'm not sure sure if The money would be better spent on the mic or the pre at this point. The KSM27 is the only mic I have right now. I'm trying to figure out the best way to expand and I want to get the best bang for my buck either way I go. If I go the mic route I was looking at teh AKG C 414 BXL II which woud leave room for some acoustic treatments and I also have no power conditioner which I know is very important. If i go the pre route I ma looking at the API Lunchbox and maybe the MA5 or Lachapell 583s or Shadow Hills Mono Gama. MA5 of the Gama would also leave me some options to get acoustic treatments and possibly a power conditioner. Another option would be the mic and less expensive pre amp but I'm not sure i like that idea to much. I rather spend the money on what I really want later on. Any thoughts and opinions would be helpful. Thanks.

SNSGUY

 

[omtayslick]

As a guy who has experimented with low end mics and pres for a couple of years, and spent money in some cases on the wrong things, I have a few suggestions for you.

The KSM27 is not a bad mic, but it may not be the best choice for your voice. So first, zero in on the mic that works for you. To borrow a phrase from Richard Monroe, (who frequents this BBS) "better a cheap pair of shoes that fit than expensive ones that don't", or something like that. There is wisdom in this statement. Sometime the best mic for your voice is not the most expensive one. I like the lowly SM57 on my voice more than some condensers. My mic for vocals is a modded Oktava MK319. My total investment in this mic, including mods, is about $335 dollars. And I wouldn't trade it for anything. It fits my voice like a glove. So you need to find YOUR vocal mic. After that, since the 8pre is probably of acceptable minimum quality, a better pre will be icing on the cake.

I think the following steps will help you get it right the first time:

Take a little of that money and spend some time in local studios auditioning mics. Find a studio that has a selection of mics in your price range, (should be easy in Nashville) and an 8pre, (or take yours with you) and make some tracks. Preferable with a music bed behind them.

Have them render them to files in a format that you can play, or a cd, then listen to them at your leisure at home, and choose your mic.

Then, take your newly aquired vocal mic and repeat the process with a selection of mic pres.

Good luck.

 

[jaz49]

I agree with omtayslick. I was using two mics that many folks recommended to me and not getting the results I wanted either. Both were mics that consistently get high praise, but I could never get the results I wanted. Richie Monroe, mentioned above, lent me one of his mics, and it was a significant improvement over both. Then, I tried the Kel HM2D, and it fits my voice like a glove. I had tried other mics that listed for a lot more money, but this one was a better fit (as in Richie's shoes analogy) on *my* voice....might be awful on yours. I also loved an Oktava 219(same capsule as the 319) on my voice, in the brief time I had a working one. In my relatively limited experience, the right mic is crucial for vocals...more so than the preamp.

 

[omtayslick]

And also, as a bonus you may find that the 8pre is perfectly acceptabe for your needs. Maybe.

Regarding room treatment, it really depends on what you are recording in your space. What sources are you recording with an open mic? How many instruments? Are some of them DI rather than microphone?

If you are only doing acoustic guitar and vocals with a mic, then one of these products will work for you in almost any room:

http://www.realtraps.com/p_pvb.htm

http://www.seelectronics.com/rf.html

http://www.smproaudio.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=81

Then the balance of your room treatment budget can be spent treating around your monitors.

 

[Ronan]

Finding the right mic for your voice is probably the most important thing that you could do. With your budget you could get a really nice mic pre, a good mic for your voice and even make some decent home made acoustic treatment, but find the right mic for your voice first.

you might find that the best mic for your voice is not the most expensive one, and there are tons of great options out there for $50-600 especially if you do not mind buying used.

 

[Richard Monroe]

God, what a love fest! Thanks, Omtayslick, snd Jaz, for your kind words. Basically- what they said (what I said). You are now into one of those pains in the ass that every recording vocalist/recordist goes through at some point. Finding the right mic for you is like finding the right woman to marry. Is it the one everybody thinks is best looking? (Neumann U87) Is it the one who costs the most to take out? (Manley Gold Reference). Is it the cheap whore who has slept with everybody in town, but is good in bed? (SM57) Is it the exotic exchange student with the intriguing accent? (B.L.U.E. Kiwi) The problem is, nobody can tell you what woman you can spend your life with, or what mic will make you sound good. I agree that right now, that's your issue. Getting a better pre for the wrong mic is like buying a better house to live in with the wrong woman. All we can do is fix you up with our ex-girlfriends, or our wife's sister, or somebody else's girlfriend.

We can sit around and ask you what "type" you like- dark, exotic, blonde, buxom, athletic, etc., but you will just go ahead and fall in love with the woman that *you* love, and everybody will wonder what you see in her. That C414 is a hot babe, no question, and a lot of people want to sleep with her, and her sisters. I've got a little black book here, and it includes Rode NTK, Shure SM7b, AKG C414, Neumann U87, Oktava MK319, AKG C2000B, Electrovoice RE20, Audio-Technica AT4060. I've also seen the supermodels by Brauner, Lawson, B.L.U.E., Manley, and Mictrotech Gefell. Mostly, they are too rich for my blood. But what the hell? I married B.L.U.E. Kiwi, and I go out with Rode NTK sometimes because she's good in bed. Don't tell my wife, the Kiwi. In the end, I always come back to her, because she's the right mic for me, and she is not a cheap date.

All analogies aside, the advice above was good. You need to get to someplace where you can try out some mics until you get lucky and find what works for you. For the sake of your budget, I hope you fall in love with a $500 mic, instead of a $5000 one. As stated above, there's a hell of a lot of worse places you could be than Nashville to make that happen. It may be that a couple of hours of studio time, bought and paid for, will be worth more than any advice we could give you. Best of luck. There's a mic out there for everybody.-Richie

 

[jaz49]

Very well said...LMAO over the sm57 analogy!

 

[darrin_h2000]

You are male...unless if you are doing irish tenor John Denver stuff...Use an SM7...leave the LDC for the ladies.

 

[Richard Monroe]

I have to respectfully disagree, Darrin. For many, many, vocalists, including plenty of boys, the SM7, or any other dynamic, is the *wrong* mic. I am certainly one of them, at least for recording. Oddly enough, I find the SM7 to be a very good live mic for me, it's what I use. But- on recordings, it requires way more EQ than I want to use to get good sound. That doesn't mean it's a bad mic (it's not). It's just the wrong mic. Neither you, nor I, nor anyone else, can predict what is the right mic for anybody. All we can do is recommend mics that work for somebody. As a general rule of thumb, dynamics *tend* to be good for rock, blues, and country and condensers *tend* to be good for classical, folk, and pop. That didn't stop Michael Jackson from sounding good on a dynamic. And-plenty of women sound good on a dynamic- i.e. Bonnie Raitt. If you are Celine Dion, you use a condenser. Not because of the material, or even your gender, but because you are Celine Dion, and that's what works for you. That said, an SM7 is just as likely to sound good on the original poster as any other good vocal mic. You*can't* look at a shoe, and tell me if it will fit, even if it says it's the right size.-Richie

 

[snsguy]

Wow thanks for all your input it sounds as if I really need to the find the right mic for me. I was thinking about going to guitar center where they said I could schedule some time and try out a few. If the guitar center doesn't help me I might need to go to a studio and try a bunch of mics out. I just want to try this without spending the extra money first. I put a clip up to show what I am talking about with my vocals. Right now they just sound kind of crappy to me. I've recorded some girls a few times and they sounded much better. It just seems like I am having problems getting a warm smooth and clean sound out of what I am using right now. You can find the clip here http://www.someonenamedsimon.com/vocaltest.html any suggestions as to what mics I should try would be awesome. I will be choosing the best for me but any ideas as where to start is appreciated. Thanks again for everyones help. This is the first place I am really getting "real advice" and not personal opinions.

SNSGUY

 

[omtayslick]

Very well said...LMAO over the sm57 analogy!

But I LOVED her!!!!

 

[omtayslick]

I listened to the clip. I'd say make sure the SM7 is on your list. Also, if you go to GC, (it is free after all) see if they'll record the mic tests for you, so that you don't have to make a decision "on the spot" with the commision salesman's help. Good luck, and report back how it goes.

 

[thajeremy]

Finding the right mic for you is like finding the right woman to marry. Is it the one everybody thinks is best looking? (Neumann U87) Is it the one who costs the most to take out? (Manley Gold Reference). Is it the cheap whore who has slept with everybody in town, but is good in bed? (SM57) Is it the exotic exchange student with the intriguing accent? (B.L.U.E. Kiwi) The problem is, nobody can tell you what woman you can spend your life with, or what mic will make you sound good. I agree that right now, that's your issue. Getting a better pre for the wrong mic is like buying a better house to live in with the wrong woman. All we can do is fix you up with our ex-girlfriends, or our wife's sister, or somebody else's girlfriend.

We can sit around and ask you what "type" you like- dark, exotic, blonde, buxom, athletic, etc., but you will just go ahead and fall in love with the woman that *you* love, and everybody will wonder what you see in her. That C414 is a hot babe, no question, and a lot of people want to sleep with her, and her sisters. I've got a little black book here, and it includes Rode NTK, Shure SM7b, AKG C414, Neumann U87, Oktava MK319, AKG C2000B, Electrovoice RE20, Audio-Technica AT4060. I've also seen the supermodels by Brauner, Lawson, B.L.U.E., Manley, and Mictrotech Gefell. Mostly, they are too rich for my blood. But what the hell? I married B.L.U.E. Kiwi, and I go out with Rode NTK sometimes because she's good in bed. Don't tell my wife, the Kiwi. In the end, I always come back to her, because she's the right mic for me, and she is not a cheap date.

Richie...dude...you are WAY to intimate with your mics friend....

Kinda makes me worry about that pair of MK012's I bought about 4 years ago from someone on the board who tells me you picked them out personally....sounds like I got sloppy thirds....

 

[Richard Monroe]

Wow, ThaJeremy! That's like making it with the Milton sisters! Not only have they been around, but they were cheap. Actually, if they are the pair I think they are, I didn't pick them out personally. They are a matched pair from The Sound Room. They are a hell of a lot better matched than anything I could match up myself. But if it makes you feel any better, I was thinking of my Neumanns the whole time.-Richie

PS- There are another pair out there in the plastic boxes. If it's that pair, I picked them up for cheap at GC when they were blowing them out, and any matching is purely coincidental. If they came with the nice wooden box, they came from The Sound Room. That coincidental matching can happen, though. I still have a pair I picked up at GC that are as well matched as anything I've seen- through pure dumb luck. That's why I sold the Sound Room pair in the first place. As long as I had another well matched pair, the pair that was *officially* matched was worth more money.

 

[Shadow_7]

Short Term Goal - Buy the Mic(s)
Long Term Goal - Buy the Preamp(s)

For $1,600 I'm assuming you're in it for the long run. And at the price, you can get decent items on both sides. Or higher end on either side, but not the other. I'd be more apt to get the preamp since it's a one timer for all intents and purposes. Once you have a good one, buy mics for their characteristics, not the preamps. Although a good preamp doesn't do you much good without a decent mic to go with it. But it sounds like you've already got a couple decent mics. Although if the Motu doesn't let you bypass it's preamps, it might be a little moot to get a better preamp without also getting better converters.

You can always bypass power conditioners by running on battery powered gear. Assuming the power is an issue for your location. It's more of an issue when recording remotely on other peoples unknown power. Most of my gear is battery powered, so not an issue for me.

 

[darrin_h2000]

I have to respectfully disagree, Darrin. For many, many, vocalists, including plenty of boys, the SM7, or any other dynamic, is the *wrong* mic. I am certainly one of them, at least for recording. Oddly enough, I find the SM7 to be a very good live mic for me, it's what I use. But- on recordings, it requires way more EQ than I want to use to get good sound. That doesn't mean it's a bad mic (it's not). It's just the wrong mic. Neither you, nor I, nor anyone else, can predict what is the right mic for anybody. All we can do is recommend mics that work for somebody. As a general rule of thumb, dynamics *tend* to be good for rock, blues, and country and condensers *tend* to be good for classical, folk, and pop. That didn't stop Michael Jackson from sounding good on a dynamic. And-plenty of women sound good on a dynamic- i.e. Bonnie Raitt. If you are Celine Dion, you use a condenser. Not because of the material, or even your gender, but because you are Celine Dion, and that's what works for you. That said, an SM7 is just as likely to sound good on the original poster as any other good vocal mic. You*can't* look at a shoe, and tell me if it will fit, even if it says it's the right size.-Richie

Bonnie Raitt...well Id have said Stevie Nicks maybe...you always saw her with a MD441...altos sound nice and warm with a Dynamic...sopranos and high tenors get the beat results from those LDCs...but its not just me saying this...its years and years of records that were cranked out I hear on the radio.

The truth is that the nice dynamic will flatter most everyone...but you have to have a nice clear head voice to get a LDC to flatter your voice.

 

[thajeremy]

Wow, ThaJeremy! That's like making it with the Milton sisters! Not only have they been around, but they were cheap. Actually, if they are the pair I think they are, I didn't pick them out personally. They are a matched pair from The Sound Room. They are a hell of a lot better matched than anything I could match up myself. But if it makes you feel any better, I was thinking of my Neumanns the whole time.-Richie

PS- There are another pair out there in the plastic boxes. If it's that pair, I picked them up for cheap at GC when they were blowing them out, and any matching is purely coincidental. If they came with the nice wooden box, they came from The Sound Room. That coincidental matching can happen, though. I still have a pair I picked up at GC that are as well matched as anything I've seen- through pure dumb luck. That's why I sold the Sound Room pair in the first place. As long as I had another well matched pair, the pair that was *officially* matched was worth more money.

I have the plastic boxed ones....

 

[jaz49]

The truth is that the nice dynamic will flatter most everyone...but you have to have a nice clear head voice to get a LDC to flatter your voice.

What's a head voice? Wouldn't a good LDC be more clear and detailed than any dynamic...except perhaps the md441? Whether that flatters or not would depend upon the singer, I suppose. Maybe with some singers, you want to cover up some of the details. I should probably include myself in that category.

 

[Richard Monroe]

The "head voice" that Darrin refers to is also known as "head tone". It is a feature of certain singers which is developed and perfected in Bel Canto, the style of singing used in opera and Italian art songs. Some people do it naturally, and others trained for years to get it, but it is much more common among those who have had formal vocal training. It uses the sinuses, essentially, as a sound box, like the body of a guitar, to increase resonance and volume, to fill a hall with the voice, over an orchestra, without amplification. It's the main thing that makes opera singers hard to mic up. Bel Canto and good mic technique are kind of like Israelis and Palestinians- they don't always play well together. For this reason, opera singers are often distant mic'd, even with SD overheads, like a drum kit. That way they can do whatever the hell they want.
That said, I still disagree with Darrin. There are, as he says, many recordings over the years, that would support his argument, and just as many that are exceptions to it. I do see this pattern, though. I would almost always rather record a singer that sucks with a dynamic than a condenser. I'm not seeing a difference in vocal range, though. Plenty of altos and baritones use condensers (Linda Rondstadt) and plenty of tenors use dynamics (Elton John), and just as many people that have access to them use ribbons, a distaff flavor of dynamic. Any pattern in what mic is used for a given type of voice is illusion.-Richie

 

[snsguy]

Short Term Goal - Buy the Mic(s)
Long Term Goal - Buy the Preamp(s)

For $1,600 I'm assuming you're in it for the long run. And at the price, you can get decent items on both sides. Or higher end on either side, but not the other. I'd be more apt to get the preamp since it's a one timer for all intents and purposes. Once you have a good one, buy mics for their characteristics, not the preamps. Although a good preamp doesn't do you much good without a decent mic to go with it. But it sounds like you've already got a couple decent mics. Although if the Motu doesn't let you bypass it's preamps, it might be a little moot to get a better preamp without also getting better converters.

You can always bypass power conditioners by running on battery powered gear. Assuming the power is an issue for your location. It's more of an issue when recording remotely on other peoples unknown power. Most of my gear is battery powered, so not an issue for me.

After looking into your right I can't bypass the pres on the Motu 8pre. So I'm having to go a different route. The sperate mic preamps are now out of the question for the time being. I am selling my Motu 8pre and using the money to get a new audio interface converter and then I will getting a new mic to go with it. I need a mic that fits my voice. That is extremely important to me I really seriously looking at the AKG C 414 B-XL II and the Sure KSM44. If I'm able to try more out I will. Has anyone listened to the clip I provided and have any ideas of which mic they think I should try? You can listen to it here http://www.someonenamedsimon.com/vocaltest.html I would really appreciate any mic suggestions. For a new audio interface I'm looking at the Focusrite Liquid Saffire 56 and the RME Fireface 800. If I go with the RME that will obviously change the price point for the mic. I was also looking at the Mackie Onyx 400f but most places have stopped carrying it. So now I guess I'm kind of starting fro scratch again. I'm learning a lot and I want to make sure I get stuff that will last me a long time and I'll be able to use with other components and just keep building up instead of having to buy something new all over again.

SNSGUY