Monitors or Cans?

[kcearl]

i have little choice but to use cans being in a small apartment...but Ive got the workflow down that the main mixing is done during the day on monitors and I can just use the cans for tweaking and bits of automation etc...not much tracking involved in my stuff...I have to say the cheapo cans I have translate surprisingly well..


cant wait to move to my own space eventually...

 

[Mixerman]

beat me to it ........ they were just crappy home bookshelf speakers that some guys started using for the 'crappy' speaker view and with thise white woofer cones , they caught peoples' eyes easily and made them go, "What are those?" and immediately an audio myth was born.

I can understand why people don't like NS10s. They're awful speakers. But it ain't no myth that they're GREAT for mixing. I avoided them for years, but in the early nineties, all I had available on this one particular hip hop album I was mixing were the mains and the NS10s. So I learned how to mix on them. The thing about NS10s is they show the warts in the midrange, and if you know what you're doing on NS10s in a reasonably designed control room, your mixes will translate everywhere in every system. I got so good at mixing on NS10s, I could mix on them exclusively, without even checking the mixes on other monitors. In fact, I mixed Ben Harper's Fight for Your Mind like that. I may have played the mixes for the boys on the mains, but I can assure you 99% of the work was done on NS10s. Same with many of the other albums that I've mixed over the years.

The Meyer HD1s also have a good healthy midrange, but they happen to be full range monitors. They too show all the warts, it's just you can hear the low end rather than having to watch the crinkle of the cone like you do with NS10s. Of course, the Meyer's are about six grand for the pair, but I like them because they make you work. Monitors that make you work may seem counter intuitive, but I'd rather have to work hard once, than to have to work hard three times because my monitors are lying to me about the midrange. Believe it or not, if you don't get the midrange right, the bottom of your mix will be screwed. This is why the lack of subs really isn't an issue on NS10s.

Of course, NS10s really aren't an available option any longer. You can still get the replacement woofers, and if anyone decides to buy a used pair, you should probably replace the woofers and tweeters right away. There have been times in my career when I changed NS10 woofers every week in order to keep them nice and tight.

All that said, I wouldn't recommend anyone go through the learning curve for those particular monitors. They're like the metaphorical crack cocaine of studio monitors. It took me years to get completely off those stupid things.

Unfortunately, I don't have a specific recommendation for the OP as to acceptable $150 monitors, but I will tell you that the worst thing you can do is attempt to mix with headphones. They're inherently skewed. You need to push air in a room to be able to evaluate a mix, and that room needs to have some semblance of acoustic treatment, or you're going to have all sorts of surprises with translation issues. The problem isn't adjusting for room anomalies that can be readily heard. The problem are the things you CAN'T hear due to cancellation issues from the room. If you can't hear it, you can't fix it. This would be like trying to paint in a pitch black room, and then checking your painting outside, only to make your adjustments back in the pitch black room.

Enjoy,

Mixerman

 

[SouthSIDE Glen]

The thing about NS10s is they show the warts in the midrange, and if you know what you're doing on NS10s in a reasonably designed control room, your mixes will translate everywhere in every system.

That's not what's often actually happening with NS-10s. The NS-10 has a bump in the upper midrange, artificially accentuating them. The bump is of relatively wide Q as compared to, say, a narrow Q parametric sweep. As such is "creates" as many warts as it exposes. When getting rid of all the warts, real and artificial, the result is a mix that tends to scoop the overall midrange a bit more than the engineer might be tempted to do on a flatter speaker. The effect when played back on flatter speakers than the NS-10 is rather like that of a playback that's hyped on the edges, and relatively flat-sounding on midrange-strong speakers like the NS-10s. It's "loudness button-style" junk food mixing.

G.

 

[Mixerman]

That's not what's often actually happening with NS-10s. The NS-10 has a bump in the upper midrange, artificially accentuating them. The bump is of relatively wide Q as compared to, say, a narrow Q parametric sweep. As such is "creates" as many warts as it exposes. When getting rid of all the warts, real and artificial, the result is a mix that tends to scoop the overall midrange a bit more than the engineer might be tempted to do on a flatter speaker. The effect when played back on flatter speakers than the NS-10 is rather like that of a playback that's hyped on the edges, and relatively flat-sounding on midrange-strong speakers like the NS-10s.

Anyone can make a skewed mix on any monitors if they completely ignore the overall characteristics of the monitors themselves (and the room issues!). Try mixing the midrange on Genelec 1031s like you would on NS10s and you're in for a big surprise. There's a personal adjustment period for any monitor, but ultimately, monitors that reveal the midrange well will offer the best opportunity to make mixes that translate.

A mixer must adjust for the room and the monitors. All I'm saying is NS10s weren't some lemming fad as has been proposed. It's possible they started catching on because of Clearmountain, but ultimately, they were embraced by the industry because they were effective. They were actually great for making mixes that translate outside the room, and once every studio had them, you always had a good reference if you learned those monitors. I've carried midfields with me for years, but it's the NS10s that most readily reveal potential translation issues.

I'm sometimes in a different room every week. The first thing I have to do when moving to a new control room space is to determine what the monitors are providing me as a result of the room. It means I have to reset the overall frequency curve in my brain. It's not easy to do, takes practice, and you can STILL get bit in the ass if you're not careful (even after twenty years of doing it). For those of us who are freelance and use different rooms, NS10s makes life easier.

Like I said, I can understand why people hate them. I can even join in with you at this point and recommend avoiding them. But it's NOT a myth that they're a highly effective reference monitor despite their generally unpleasant nature.

It's "loudness button-style" junk food mixing.

I don't actually disagree with this statement, but it's irrelevant to the argument.

Enjoy,

Mixerman

 

[SouthSIDE Glen]

I don't actually disagree with this statement, but it's irrelevant to the argument.

It's entirely relevant to the actual central subject, and that's the music itself. And doing a loudness button mix and passing that off as OK because it's translatable is disingenuous. I'm not getting on your case, I'm saying that it's a convenient way that the "conventional wisdom" of the industry has managed to pull the wool over it's own eyes.

And yes, it has everything to do with a "lemming effect". There is absolutely nothing special about NS-10s. Clearmountain - or anyone else, pick your own favorite legend - could have picked virtually *any* midling-quality bookshelf speaker with sloppy low end and midrange bump - extremely common characteristics amongst consumer speakers at the time - as their favorite back then, and learned to mix on it.

In other words, there were a hundred other bookshelves by a dozen different brands that would have worked just as "effectively" as the NS-10. The luck of the draw just so happened to make it the NS-10. It started as the in vogue Gucci bag of engineers to carry with them (and don't underestimate the "kewlness" drawing power of those white woofer cones at the time, either), which then turned into the de facto standard to throw into the studio gear list.

The idea was nothing new, really. Before the NS-10, it was the Auratones, which were even worse than the NS-10s. And if the NS-10s never existed, it would have been some other of the multitude of portable, bass-deficient, midrange-heavy loudspeaker that every studio would be clamoring to get onto their desks, simply for continuity's sake, and the world would have kept on spinning.

Yes, you can make translatabe mixes on NS-10s. But so can you make translatable mixes on Auratones, or, if you learn the translation well enough, Jensen 6x9 coaxials, or even a decent pair of headphones. It really all depends on what you decide to like and to cut your teeth on. But given a real choice, when it comes to actually efforting to make a mix that is more than just simply translatable, very few people would ever suggest any of those options.

G.

 

[miroslav]

There is absolutely nothing special about NS-10s. Clearmountain - or anyone else, pick your own favorite legend - could have picked virtually *any* midling-quality bookshelf speaker with sloppy low end and midrange bump - extremely common characteristics amongst consumer speakers at the time - as their favorite back then, and learned to mix on it.

In other words, there were a hundred other bookshelves by a dozen different brands that would have worked just as "effectively" as the NS-10. The luck of the draw just so happened to make it the NS-10. It started as the in vogue Gucci bag of engineers to carry with them (and don't underestimate the "kewlness" drawing power of those white woofer cones at the time, either), which then turned into the de facto standard to throw into the studio gear list.

Exactly.

I know other guys who will SWEAR that the NS10's are THE monitor, still (and are hoarding available stock). They say that they just "work"...when really, it's just what their ears are use to, and that's only because they are the ones that got picked by the right few people in the industry, almost by chance...and it quickly spread like wildfire, so everyone got NS10 monitors.
I wanted to buy them way back...and the audio rep said straight up, "I know everyone uses them...but there are much better monitors you can get and you don't have hang Kleenex in front of the tweeters."

It's like Pro Tools...I mean...would the industry have been so Gung-ho to turn it into some sort of standard had it been called Cool Edit Pro...
There are a bunch of DAW apps that are and have been much more "friendlier" that Pro Tools (by the admissions of Pro Tools users!!!!)....yet they stick with it because it's become a studio staple and it's expected by clients. It could have been any one of several DAW apps.....

 

[SouthSIDE Glen]

It's like Pro Tools...

Yep. I almost brought that one up myself, but my posts are already too long for the dyslexia of the smart phone age.

Pro Tools became the standard not because it was the superior choice so much as because it was in the right place at the right time.

The key to the de facto standardization of both it and the NS-10 (separately) was the need/desire for *any* standard. The studios, engineers and producers wanted to be able to go to any studio of their choice and not have a learning curve every time they stepped into a different CR. Knowing you could walk into XYZ studios and have a DAW you were familiar with using and a touchstone set of monitors to check your mixes on was advantageous to both the studio and the engineer/producer.

Of course, both PT and the NS-10 had to deliver, and they could and did (and do). But that's not to say that they could deliver in a way superior to everything else, just that those were the ones lucky enough to be in the right place at the right time to be drafted for the post.

G.

 

[Mixerman]

It's entirely relevant to the actual central subject, and that's the music itself.

I would argue a set of reference monitors that can be relied upon to translate outside the room offer the mixer MORE time to deal with the music itself. It's one less thing to think about.

And doing a loudness button mix and passing that off as OK because it's translatable is disingenuous. I'm not getting on your case, I'm saying that it's a convenient way that the "conventional wisdom" of the industry has managed to pull the wool over it's own eyes.

Have you ever used NS10s? How many times? What studios? Just your own, or did you go to other studios? What amplifier pairings have you found work best with them? If you're using a NS10M do you put tissue over the tweeter? Were the tweeter grills squared off or perfectly round? Did you have the NS10s fused or unfused the times you worked with them. Did you compare them each way? What sort of differences did you notice when comparing a fused pair with an unfused pair? Have you ever used NS10s in conjunction with a subwoofer?

I've performed hundreds of mixes in dozens of professional studios on NS10s and have never had translation issues. This allows me to concentrate on the music, something I'm a BIG proponent of, and which can be verified in my book dedicated to same, Zen and the Art of Mixing. I'm not sure where this whole "disingenuous" chip of yours is coming from, but as someone who wrote a book on mixing which has been described as "giving away the farm" I'm thinking it's not a credible value judgment on your part where my motives are concerned. But thanks for the opportunity to point that out.

And yes, it has everything to do with a "lemming effect". There is absolutely nothing special about NS-10s. Clearmountain - or anyone else, pick your own favorite legend - could have picked virtually *any* midling-quality bookshelf speaker with sloppy low end and midrange bump - extremely common characteristics amongst consumer speakers at the time - as their favorite back then, and learned to mix on it.

In other words, there were a hundred other bookshelves by a dozen different brands that would have worked just as "effectively" as the NS-10.

Hence my advice for others to consider monitors with a pronounced midrange.

The luck of the draw just so happened to make it the NS-10. It started as the in vogue Gucci bag of engineers to carry with them (and don't underestimate the "kewlness" drawing power of those white woofer cones at the time, either), which then turned into the de facto standard to throw into the studio gear list.

The idea was nothing new, really. Before the NS-10, it was the Auratones, which were even worse than the NS-10s.

I was around when auratones were on every console, and I've never met anyone (shall I list all the engineers and mixers I know personally?) that's actually used them for anything other than a spot check. Talk about myths!

And if the NS-10s never existed, it would have been some other of the multitude of portable, bass-deficient, midrange-heavy loudspeaker that every studio would be clamoring to get onto their desks, simply for continuity's sake, and the world would have kept on spinning.

But it WAS NS10s, and that's what we're discussing here.

Yes, you can make translatabe mixes on NS-10s. But so can you make translatable mixes on Auratones,

OOOH. I'd love to hear a mix of yours done purely on Auratones. That would be a worthwhile endeavor!

or, if you learn the translation well enough, Jensen 6x9 coaxials, or even a decent pair of headphones. It really all depends on what you decide to like and to cut your teeth on.

Ah yes. I love this argument. "You cut your teeth on that, so that's what you like forever amen." I started recording in 1987. I recorded my first Gold album in LA in 1992. I used NS10s rather than Tannoy Gold's for the first time in 1993 (I remember the album). Oops! I guess that argument falls flat!

Enjoy,

Mixerman

 

[Lt. Bob]

Dude ..... you're the one acting like you've got a chip on your shoulders. Southside was FAR more polite than you're being.

I myself started recording in 1969 ...... I have no gold records, of course, and I doubt I'm anywhere near as good as you are .... let me repeat that, I freely acknowledge that you're surely much better than I am..... but that means I've been in studios almost twice as long as you have so the 1987 thing doesn't impress me.
Personally I don't think you should point to that in every post as a reason to simply accept everything you say as infallible.

I'm more of a live player myself but I don't come into every post listing the big names I've interacted with. And I won't ...... name dropping is really annoying and doesn't address the issues in any meaningful way. Who I've played or hung with doesn't tell anyone anything about my skills.
In the same way there's PLENTY of gold records that sound like shit.
The book would be a better show of what you know but if you're gonna come into every post with "I have gold records" or "I wrote a book and everyone says it's great!" then thank you but take your ego elsewhere.

 

[kcearl]

i was sampled on the b-side of a top five hit in the UK indie charts in '91...Im happy to name drop...they were a Bay Area marxist rap band called Consolidated...thank you to all my fans

 

[Mixerman]

Dude ..... you're the one acting like you've got a chip on your shoulders. Southside was FAR more polite than you're being.

I am? He was? Please show me my ad hominem attacks on this thread.

I do believe I'm explaining a little of my background. It's not for purposes of anything other than to give context of when and where I started and why I come to my opinions for the purposes of this discussion, as there are all sorts of weird accusations being thrown about under the guise of argument. It's actually rare for me to bring up anything on my disc, but when someone is arguing that the monitors I've used for years on records that people love were chosen as a result of the lemming effect (an effect that I (and everyone else) was apparently fooled by for an entire career), well, I think it's fair game to bring up examples of work that would counter this line of argument. No?

But if I'm out of line, do tell. Show me my opening salvo, and I'll gladly offer a mea culpa.

Thanks,

Mixerman

 

[Lt. Bob]

I am? He was? Please show me my ad hominem attacks on this thread.

I do believe I'm explaining a little of my background. It's not for purposes of anything other than to give context of when and where I started and why I come to my opinions for the purposes of this discussion, as there are all sorts of weird accusations being thrown about under the guise of argument.

But if I'm out of line, do tell. Show me my opening salvo, and I'll gladly offer a mea culpa.

Thanks,

Mixerman

no need for any of that ...... glad to have your knowledge and skillz around to help people learn to do better recordings.

 

[shoggoth80]

Well, I got my cans today. They sound really nice for listening to professionally cranked out albums. Probably will make nitpicking tracks easier. Next up will be a set of monitors though, that way I have multiple tools at my disposal.

 

[happymatty]

hey, like 2 years ago, i took the step up to some monitors, had al ook and listen around, and i couldnt find anything in my proice range that was actually any good, so i got some beyerdynamics cans, DT100's, Flat responce, very accurate, but! i do have to constantly cross refrence with my (slightly high end) hi fi and other cans/in ear phones to make sure i havent missed anything.

im happy with them but when the time and money is right i will invest in some nice monitors and some sound treatment

 

[SouthSIDE Glen]

Jesus, mixerstranger, no one called you a lemming. How could anyone call you anything when you won't even let anybody know who you actually are?

I said the NS-10 became a de facto standard because of need for standardization on a touchstone monitor that engineers didn't have to carry with them from studio to studio. It could have been any number of loudspeakers that were being sold as bookshelves to the home stereo market back then, but it just so happened to be the NS-10 that caught on as the standard.

The lemming effect occurred because the industry insisted that there be a model that was standardized upon. It's not meant as a dig on you or anyone else, I only use it by way of explanation as to how the NS-10 gained the infamous ubiquity and status that it has. And it's an explanation of the truth.

And not only have I used NS 10s, but I used to sell them. I probably sold more pairs back in the early 80s than you have seen in your career. I used my first pair myself back around '78-'79 or so (I can't remember exactly), and when I worked as a developer and engineer for Discreet Logic and D-Vision in the 90s, I was practically surrounded by them in our development and display labs, not to mention editing suites used by my clients which ranged from cable Superstation WGN-TV to the French Government to Bass Pro Shops to Jim Henson Productions.

So you used an NS-10 or three in your life, and made some decent recordings with them. So has every freakin' engineer worth their salt in this racket. It's impossible for anyone with experience to have not come across them somewhere, sometime in their career.

It's also impossible to drive down the street and not see a multitude of police cars made out of Chevy Impalas. That doesn't make the Impala one of the world's great cars either. It a perfectly serviceable car, but it sure is nothing any more special than a hundred other makes and models on the road. And before you ask, yes I can talk with some authority as an Impala owner myself since 2006.

The NS-10 is nothing more than a Chevy Impala re-packaged with the Mars lights and paint job of a police car/studio monitor. It can do the job, but no better than a hundred other potential models that but for a slip of fate could have easily taken it's place in the history pages of audio engineering. And any claim otherwise is just delusion.

G.

 

[shoggoth80]

Wow, I wish I had the tech experience of people like SouthsideGlen, or Mixmaster, or any of the other long timers in the audio-field. I can't even begin to speak with a level of amateur authority on any of this stuff It's ok if people agree to disagree guys.

I started this thread to dig out information and user opinions, even those that conflict with each other. I suppose a good engineer will be able to mix, regardless of the tools at his/her disposal. Kinda like the notion if you can't get a decent sound with your gear with a basic preamp, buying a top tier one won't magically make your sound better. Lol.

For what it is worth, the cans are Audio Technicas, and have a claimed 20Hz-20KHz response range. While it will be a little while before I can see how they actually work in actual mixing of multiple sound sources, for pumping sound through them, they sound very, VERY good, from my layman perspective on audio gear anyway. I looked at the spare cash I had on hand, and snagged the best set that my meager funds could grab for the moment (after reading a lot of user feedback reviews). For what they are, I can't bitch.

 

[kcearl]

Wow, I wish I had the tech experience of people like SouthsideGlen, or Mixmaster, or any of the other long timers in the audio-field. I can't even begin to speak with a level of amateur authority on any of this stuff It's ok if people agree to disagree guys.

I started this thread to dig out information and user opinions, even those that conflict with each other. I suppose a good engineer will be able to mix, regardless of the tools at his/her disposal. Kinda like the notion if you can't get a decent sound with your gear with a basic preamp, buying a top tier one won't magically make your sound better. Lol.

For what it is worth, the cans are Audio Technicas, and have a claimed 20Hz-20KHz response range. While it will be a little while before I can see how they actually work in actual mixing of multiple sound sources, for pumping sound through them, they sound very, VERY good, from my layman perspective on audio gear anyway. I looked at the spare cash I had on hand, and snagged the best set that my meager funds could grab for the moment (after reading a lot of user feedback reviews). For what they are, I can't bitch.

Try to get yourself a pair of older higher end hi fi speakers and a small amp out a thrift or pawn shop...that will probably give you enough to get started on along with the cans...I use Audo Technicas as well and they surprised me how remarkably accurate they are but you just dont get the depth or the proper stereo image on them...well not without a lot of to-ing and fro-ing

Dont worry about the cock-fights...they break out every now and then

 

[shoggoth80]

"Try to get yourself a pair of older higher end hi fi speakers and a small amp out a thrift or pawn shop"
-This is a rather viable possibility. Right now, cans might actually be the better tool, as my "room" isn't treated. My gear sits next to my computer... but since my stuff is relatively small, I could pack it up, and take it almost wherever (as long as wherever has a computer monitor to loan). This is a real possibility given that about 50 miles separate my friend who really wants to do this, and another 50 (in the OTHER direction) separates another 2 friends who want to get involved. Lol. A little crazy, but whatever, the distance and circumstance is not insurmountable.

Any suggestions on what old school hi fi gear to keep an eye out for? I never had much access to higher end audio gear when I was younger, and never thought of it...
Or maybe a better phrasing is "what are the traits that I am looking for?" in older high fi gear?

 

[kcearl]

"Try to get yourself a pair of older higher end hi fi speakers and a small amp out a thrift or pawn shop"
-This is a rather viable possibility. Right now, cans might actually be the better tool, as my "room" isn't treated. My gear sits next to my computer... but since my stuff is relatively small, I could pack it up, and take it almost wherever (as long as wherever has a computer monitor to loan). This is a real possibility given that about 50 miles separate my friend who really wants to do this, and another 50 (in the OTHER direction) separates another 2 friends who want to get involved. Lol. A little crazy, but whatever, the distance and circumstance is not insurmountable.

Any suggestions on what old school hi fi gear to keep an eye out for? I never had much access to higher end audio gear when I was younger, and never thought of it...
Or maybe a better phrasing is "what are the traits that I am looking for?" in older high fi gear?

dunno mate, if it were me Id just look for something like missions or wharfdales or anything that cost a few hundred bucks in days gone by...I wouldnt want to invest much in them as you'll need nearfields at some point soon

As far as amps well again, you dont want to invest much again, you can pick up small crown poweramps on fleabay, theyre decent...try to keep it sub $100 and you can prolly shift them on c'list come the time and stick the cash towards decent monitors


dont worry to much about room treatment etc etc (I'll cop flack for that)...get started and learn the basics..I mix on the wrong wall in a corridor with a couple of foam bass traps and my mixes dont come out too shabby...we're not expecting to challenge the pros....yet lol

much better to know what you are listening to and listening for and that needs practise so hurry up

 

[Lt. Bob]

dunno mate, if it were me Id just look for something like missions or wharfdales or anything that cost a few hundred bucks in days gone by...I wouldnt want to invest much in them as you'll need nearfields at some point soon

As far as amps well again, you dont want to invest much again, you can pick up small crown poweramps on fleabay, theyre decent...try to keep it sub $100 and you can prolly shift them on c'list come the time and stick the cash towards decent monitors


dont worry to much about room treatment etc etc (I'll cop flack for that)...get started and learn the basics..I mix on the wrong wall in a corridor with a couple of foam bass traps and my mixes dont come out too shabby...we're not expecting to challenge the pros....yet lol

much better to know what you are listening to and listening for and that needs practise so hurry up

^^^^^ good advice ^^^^^