monitoring desk for live purposes?

[LemonTree]

thank you all for you posts, suggestions, nagging

''By the way, if you dont believe me, check out the last Audio Media!

There's no question of not believing''
GOOD. because i take my music, this forum, and everythign concernign it very serious!
ANd i am nto here to make fairytales and crap stories about how good i am and how expirienced i am!

''I think the key element here is this.....

bands are a pain in the ass. Especially for a FOH engineer. If you come in sporting some mixing console and telling them all about wanting to use you IEM's and what not, you will officially become the doucheband of the night. I have played shows with about a million other bands on the bill and one of the 3-5 bands are always the doucheband. Whether it be their 43 piece drum kit with triggers, their own mixer, and Tommy Lee's old drum case that is the size of a small truck....or the assmunches who bring 13 full stacks in to play on a stage that is 12' wide for a bar filled to the brim with 22 people. Save the IEM for when you play the Grammy's. Don't be the doucheband.''

Tell me something, please!
How do you think is a doucheband to a FOH engineer. Someone who does not care about his setup, who does not care, how the band sounds, where the monitors, are, if they hear themselves properly, if their show can be really as good as they were planning and rehearsing, or the band who gets to the stage, not giving directions but taking them from the FOH engineer, abotu where they shoudl stand, where shoudl the amps be placed and how many triggers are on the drums!

Off course there arte a lot of bands, who want to look cool, but they dont with their gear.
BUt f you come prepaired, and want to really make an effor,t i think FOH engineer notices that and if he lieks what he is doing he will appreciate it!
If not, i think he shoudl quit his job ASAP!
So i agree with you xstatic, not just there but on other issues also!

YOu see i did not know about all the direct out things that are in the consoles!
I knew there is not a big difference between the consoles and i really hope i will found something although the Allen & heath really looks wonderful!
On the other hand i did nto finf the split channels on it neither did i found them on the crest?

And i have been searching for a splitter, but really we woudl need a whole system, i mean for at least 8-10 channels!

I think you are erally overreacting with this difficult setup, leave IEM at home....
I would go with Xstatic here, if it is done properly....


LEt's imagine the worst case scenario...... And tell me where i am wrong!
And thinder and LEmontree, you can also participate in this imagination of mine, as you we woudl all play in this ''festival'' with our bands!

So there are 15 acts on the stage within the day!
No chance to get a real soundcheck, for anyone!

You are on at 19h.30, people are gathering, no way you can afford to go wrong!

So usually you woudl setup the amps, your stopmboxes, have a line check and astart playing, with onyl hoping what woudl be heard once strumm the first gutar part, or kick the drum! The monitors? Totally forogot them, but no time, we will play how we can, because i erally want to have a good show!

You see, this is wher it breaks, if you ask me!
THis is the moment, that separates a band form a bunch of freinds playing music!

You cant go on stage thinking, liek well we can play like this, no soundcheck, the sound can be awful, but i really want to play!
And i have my amp and cabinet i can lean on, and if i dont hear my bandmates good, i will jsut step to them....
Well let say that somehow passes, but what about the singer? How willhe hear himself?

Not this maybe an exagguration, but i really want to make a worst case scenario here!

We all heave been there and god knwos (i for one) dont want to go back!

This is what i have in mind!

the time is 20.10 (LEmontree's band stopped playing, THunders33 is still on) xstatic is out FOH mixer!

We go on stage an 80% of the montioring is setup!
what is now hooked up is being hooked up, and xstatic instead of spending time with monitoring, he really does not have the time to do, he does the line check. All system go, we start playing!
And we paly jsut like we played the past 3 months in the rehearsals! We knwo our sound, we can hear eachother perferctly, and the singer can hear like he knows, the control of the singing is really extraorinary with IEM!
If this woudl not be an open air fest, but a small venue, i woudl not WOULD NOT use cabinets, but as i have already explained as my desire, use line-outs of my pre-amps speaker emulators!

I think x static (being a credited and long-time lots of expirienced FOH engineer) already counted and explained all the advantages of going direct, no bleeding, no wedges.......

And now with my questions?

How on earth can the sound from rehearsal change drasticly from venue to venue!

When you have a cemented setup at rehearsal and except the use of the main vocal dont use any mics, everythin is line in (NO PRE_AMPS) the sound cann not change!
THe settings on the guitar/bass pre-amps can be exactly the same, no need to change it!we woudl leave every knob on the console the same, and have prepaired everythign prior to playing like xstatic explained!
Where is the problem?

The main problem with this is...we're gonna need a time machine. I haven't been on a stage since 1998

I do admire your enthusiasm, I'll give you that. It's just when you hang around here for long enough you see posts every day from kids with ideas they haven't thought all the way through in terms of practicality and what's most economical for them.

I for one would 10 times out of 10 choose to have an amp behind me and rely on the FOH engineer to get me a good enough monitor mix during the first sone than rely on IEM that's prolly gonna get yanked out cause you can't hear shit anyway like thunder said....even if the monitor mix isn't right, as soon as the first song's over I only have to shout out my needs....Vocals up, snare down in ma wedge please and I'm sorted.

I blame X Factor and Pop Idol

 

[boingoman]

How on earth can the sound from rehearsal change drasticly from venue to venue!

When you have a cemented setup at rehearsal and except the use of the main vocal dont use any mics, everythin is line in (NO PRE_AMPS) the sound cann not change!
THe settings on the guitar/bass pre-amps can be exactly the same, no need to change it!we woudl leave every knob on the console the same, and have prepaired everythign prior to playing like xstatic explained!
Where is the problem?

Individual playing dynamics and voices change from night to night. Drums sound different on every stage, unless they are electronic. The PA plays a part too. IEMs need adjusting for many of the same reasons wedges do, basically.

"Doucheband". That's good.

 

[xstatic]

I think it is pretty important that early on in this post I mentioned that it would be a good idea to have your own monitoring setup IF it is WELL IMPLEMENTED. If it is unorganized and improperly set up, than I firmly agree that it would be a bad idea. If that is the case than it would be much better to either use the house monitoring system, or to take your ears BEFORE the show to the house monitor engineer (whether he also be the FOH guy or not is venue dependant) and let him or her know what you need and discuss it. Surprises are what I hate the most, not special requests. Allow the house crew to have time to get their plan of attack together.

Mixing in ear monitors is very different from mixing standard wedges. With wedges a well seasoned band may not actually need a whole of channels in it. SR guitar goes in SL monitor, a little kick, heavy on the respected vocal mic with a little less of all other vocals, and maybe a little kick/snare and keys. With ears however all of a sudden you need at least a little of almost every instrument. With ears a slight movement of an aux pot can really throw off a mix, whereas with wedges it may not even be noticed.

In my experience when someone pulls out their in ear monitors it is because the mix isn't right. This typically happens when a house guy is mixing the ears. The house guy may not understand the visual cues that something is wrong in the mix and may not get it changed, or change the wrong thing. Especially if he/she is running monitors from FOH where he is also focusing on the main mix and is a good 75 feet plus from stage. In this event band members often find it easier to pull at least one ear out and use the live sound from stage and the back of the main PA as reinforcement. However, if a band memeber understands how to setup a mix and can run it on their own (no house guy) this problem can be completely solved. There will definately be some changes in stage stuff when moving form venue to venue, but 80% of it will still be there. I never reccomended setting the ears up and just starting to play. Taking 5 minutes to ensure that levels and tones are consistent is not unreasonable for a band to ask for. Typically FOH and monitor engineers will do the same at shows anyhow. Amps will all be pretty close, so will keys. Vocals cary a little night after night, but nothing a quick tweak of the gain knob shouldn't fix. Drum tones will definately be a llittle different from night to night as well, but this should not affect the in ears any more than it affects the drummer who is playing without them. As long as you are using the same mics, instruments and ears every night, everything should be almost there, and even acceptable should you have to just start. As a FOH guy I would be happy because I know the band can't get upset by some idiot monitor engineer who may be giving them a horrid mix and not communicating well, and I have a quiet stage so I can actually mix with the mains instead of having to mix around the monitors. FOH will also get a cleaner more accurate representation of the band without screaming guitars bleeding into the vocal mic and such. As far as in ears go, the PA really should not play a part of how the in ear monitors sound. With wedges however, there is often heavy interaction between the two unless it is a large enough room with a line array, or at least enough depth between the downstage monitor edge and the stacks.

In the end it really boils down to how well prepared the band is and how well they can implement their system with the diffeernces in the varying clubs. This just means having long enough snake tails, and long enough mic looms so they don't have to rearrange everything on the fly due to the different logistics of different venues.

 

[11miles]

The worst case scenario that i was describing really is the worst case scenario!
And as x-static mentioned with the setup i am thinking about you ca do the soundcheck prior to your show, even when others band are playing! At least the majority!

What i really want is be as independant as fas as connections and monitoting goes as possible!

Sure its a pain in the ass, and a hugry dog in the wallet but on the end, i think you are better of with a good monitoring setup, than a LEs Paul Gibson Custom something.....
The way i see it, if you dont hear yourself really well, plaing singing....and you only thrieve from the people in first row screaming your name, you shoudl be singing on playback!!!

But i think everyone enjoys a good show, especially if we hear what we want and exactly how much we want!

that got me thinking and i thought a IEM woudl solve the problem! But i know now, that it cant!
I agree that settign the mix for IEm is far more difficult, more precise thatn the wedges!

Imagine me being on stage! I am a singer/guitarist!
Please tell me, what is a good setup/placing for my amp, for me to hear it good, and so i woudl not drive crazy the rest of the bend!
To tell you the truth my expirience so far?
NO placement!
BEcause in order to hear yourself good, you have to have either right next to you (not an option) or pointing it towards you and so loud, you can hear it good! But that usually means so loud the drumemr goes crazy, or someone else in the band!
So it got me thinking, and i think what is the best option is to run my guitar to IEM also!
And then i thought well why not all of it? We can all be have IEM and listen to ourselves right!
What are the bad points?
Well it woudl cost a lot of money and adjusting
THe good sides?
YOU HEAR YOURSELF PROPERLY. and you hear everybody else just as much as you woudl want! the amps are not screamingly loud, no wedges, which means no feedback, more space.....

This is really tough to comapre because any input you may consider of having it will reward you 10times back!

On the other hand like x-static said, you really have to make it a bullet-proof thing setup, at least as far as you can take it!

That is why i started this post not to besure if this is a good thing (well kinda) but to really knwo as much as possible and whati have to think about along the way!


If you come to a venue (big small, club, pothole) and you say to the sound guy, if he doesn't know that yet(rider) i dont think he woudl get angry mad, pissed off, though we are a doucheband?

If so, somebody woudl have to represent that to him, that that means less work for him!

 

[11miles]

Now x-static,

please tell me more about the snakes, direct out,s and what other/better routing capabilities does a monitoring desk has that FOH doesn't?

You were talking about the crest?

I also looked at Allen heath, maybe that is a better soluttion, because it is mroe in the price range i imagine!

What i thought i woudl do, and tell me if i am wrong!

We taka a desk taht we will use for IEM. And we run amps's line out to the monitoring desk line in!
No pre-amp required. Through the direct outs to the main snake and to the foh. Also the cabinets, if possible (bigger stage) can be miced, but i dont need to take that to the monitoring desk, right?
THe only thing i do need that requires mci pre-amp is 1 vocal, because we only use one (me)
Everything else can be miked liek it woudl be in a ''normal'' band setup and sent to the FOH tthrough the main snake! And then the FOH engineer sends the drummer his drum fill back to the wedge only he uses. THat is one bus of the FOH desk Another one he can give to us, with mybe only OH and kick.


Where did i go wrong?

 

[11miles]

As far as my mic is concerned....

I would use a splitter only for that.
Als what i was thinking about i coudl make a distribution unit for it?

We have done it already for a place/venue, and it works perfectly!
It in facts distibutes one mic line (gr-tip ring) to the exact one, so you have two!
The problem is without capacitors, and other electronic ''junk'' you can only do one distribution per channel!

So i would plug the mic cable into itand throguh there, one cannon woudl go to the monitoring desk and anothr one straight to the FOH!
No pre-amps and stuff to worry about!
On the other hand if i am making these i coudl make at least 4 jsut in case!

But all in alon, correct me where my plans are far to great?

This is all because currently we cant afford a lto of really expesive stuff! I know it is great like the crest you mentioned, but that is pretty out of our budget!

THanks a mill

and also have you hear anything from the Aviom?
THat is also a company that makes audio monitoring sollutions! Pretty neat!
But propably expensive

 

[LemonTree]

Imagine me being on stage! I am a singer/guitarist!
Please tell me, what is a good setup/placing for my amp, for me to hear it good, and so i woudl not drive crazy the rest of the bend!
To tell you the truth my expirience so far?
NO placement!
BEcause in order to hear yourself good, you have to have either right next to you (not an option) or pointing it towards you and so loud, you can hear it good! But that usually means so loud the drumemr goes crazy, or someone else in the band!

What size of venue are you thinking about playing? Stadiums? Outdoor Arenas?

From MY experience touring, anything up to a 1500, 2000 capacity venue the setup and soundcheck for the headline band goes something like this.....

Bassist, Guitarist and Drummer set up their amps and traps. The guitarist and bass player set to a moderate volume where they can hear themselves over the drums. At this point the drummer, guitarist and bassist should all be able to talk to each other without raising their voice TOO much.

By the time that's been done the inhouse engineer and/or assistants will have everything on the stage mic'd up. The vocalist gets his vocals in his wedge, The drummer get's his splash of what he needs, typicaly kick/snare/hats/bit of bass & vocal, The bass player - kick/snare/hats - splash of guitar and he can probably hear enough vocal from the centre wedge, The guitarist.....they're usualy happy with just more of themselves

That's a 2- 5 minute job depending on how well REHERSED the band are at this kind of setup. A good band respects the FOH engineer and want to get that over as quickly as possible

The FOH guy will ask the band to run through a number......everything on stage is set and he'll carve out the FOH mix.

NOW, I think what you are missing here is the importance of the band playing as a unit, knowing each other's volumes, knowing what to expect. If you stick a set of plugs in each of that bands ears, suiddenly they want to hear EVERYTHING in their IEMs.

When you give them everything piped in ear like that they can't hear shit on stage, the groove dissapears and the whole arse generaly falls out of the show.

This is just my EXPERIENCE and MHO and as your thread has become a bit of a ghost town with only you in here cooking up more IMAGINED scenarios I thought I'd share some factual information with you. There's no worse feeling on this earth than getting your hopes built up so high about something that you ignore all the free advice round about you. Then when push comes to shove the whole thing falls on its arse and you're left standing there thinking.....they told me so.

Amp modlers are great for small studios where space is a problem and noise levels are a problem. Live you should be gettin cranked, gettin high and rockin out to a live crowd. The whole thing is supposed to be a buzz, not a clinical exercise. Seriously dude, get yourself out to some live shows and take in what's going on around you. I'm not here to burst your bubble, just to shine a light onto your stage and let you see what's really happening.

Good luck with everything

Alec

 

[boingoman]

The worst case scenario that i was describing really is the worst case scenario!

If so, somebody woudl have to represent that to him, that that means less work for him!

11miles,

The festival situation you talked about isn't the worst case scenario. Much worse ones exist in clubs in every city, and life has a way of making things hard sometimes.

Having an IEM setup doesn't make you a doucheband. What makes you a doucheband is how you deal with it. And more gear always means more work, not less.

I haven't worked with as many IEM setups as xstatic, but I have had them go very well, and very bad. It all depends on the band. It's usually trickier on a local level in small clubs, where the facilities may not be the best, the staff is small or unfamiliar or bitter or all three, there are space concerns, multiple acts in one night, the list goes on and on.

Here's a bad scenario:

You get to the club. There are three bands. You are the middle band. Your IEM rig is a splitter and a mixer in a rack. The headlining band is taking up a big part of the stage, and refuses to strike their gear. The opening bands must just do whatever they can to work around the headliners, and there is limited time allowed for changeovers. The only place for your IEM rack is over by the monitor board. The guitar player is now forty feet from the IEM rack. You only have thirty foot cables. There is no house monitor guy, you don't have one, the house guy is running monitors, and has never mixed IEMs before.

You are lucky enough to find a cable, without having to try and find a store at 7pm on Wednesday. You are also lucky enough to get a soundcheck. You start checking. The subwoofers are bleeding onto the stage, so the bass player and drummer need their mixes changed. Your drummer is set up in front of the headliner's kit, and the drums are blasting, so everyone else needs changes. Since the IEM rig is offstage, the band member who is running monitors must get offstage, run to monitor world, make changes, and run back. In the meantime, the house guy comes up and says "Hey, you guys are running your guitar amps direct. That's great, but there are ground loop issues. I'm getting lots of hum from them in the PA." Since your amps have XLR outs, none of you have DIs, which have ground lifts that would solve the problem. The house guy says he has two left. Unfortunately, you need three, two for guitars and one for bass.

The house guy tells you he is running out of time, since tweaking your monitor mixes took so long. And he needs to mic your amps. It starts to look like a real pain, the amps can't be directly hooked to FOH or the monitor rig. Working out a patching scenario will take too long, and you don't have enough people to pull it off anyway, with the time limits you have.

Doucheband response: "What the fuck? Why don't you have enough DIs for us? Our stuff works fine in other places. This place sucks."

Pro response: "This isn't working. Let's use the club's wedges tonight."

While unpatching your IEM rig, someone manages to break three XLRs on the house monitor split. The house guy informs you that he needs your IEM splitter for the night, as you have broken his. He tells you you can wait until the end of the night, or pick it up tomorrow. And you won't get paid until the club deducts the repair expense. You were planning on leaving after your set, you need to be up early for work. You live an hour away.

 

[boingoman]

All your inputs will need to be split, and run on mic cables, one to the monitor mixer, one to FOH, unless you get a board like the Crest, with a built-in splitter. The snake that runs to FOH will go into the mic pres on the FOH board. You need to give the FOH guy signal on those. The easiest way to interface an IEM rig with a house rig is an XLR splitter, one split for every channel.

Running your amp line-outs to the line-ins on your mixer and sending FOH a signal from the direct outs could be as expensive as a multi-channel splitter, will cause problems half the time, and will add to your setup time. You would need 1/4"-XLR adapters for all these channels, to plug into the house snake. Much easier to have one snake to hook to the club snake.

Running amps direct is cool, but could cause ground loops. I'd have a DI with a ground lift available for any direct input that causes hum. Clubs may have a few, but relying on a club for that is taking a big chance.

 

[11miles]

i am thanking you all for your responses!

Lemontree i am sorry if this thread i started is bothering you in a sence that has a become a ghost thread

''This is just my EXPERIENCE and MHO and as your thread has become a bit of a ghost town with only you in here cooking up more IMAGINED scenarios I thought I'd share some factual information with you''

But to tell you the truth, you did not broke my hopes!

Because iknow how thigns are on stage, and the fact is i don thear shit! And i woudl like to!
Monitoring is always the problem so is the loud volume!
ANd if a bend is rehearsing with iem's they can play wiht groove on IEM's!

What is worse is tha you coem to play in a show, set yourself amp as loud as you want and think screw everybody else!

Liek you said, the groove is important and i dont think it can be only done with wedges! And not by IEm!

Boingo, also what you forogot is that i really apreciat all the things everbody has to say!

This is not competition, i woudl liek to know everythign i can and have to to prepaire me and my whole band for good IEM! And i know i can do it with your help!
the scenario as you mentioned is exactly the type of things i woudl liek to hear!

Not to be frightened but to be aware of wht happend and insted of 30 feet cable i wil consider 40!

MAybe someone shoudl oin this thread that is not a guitarist or FOH enginer (no offense intended) but a singer who is also guitarist, liek me!

It's a bithc to have good sounds and monitoris and to top it all of to hear yourslef properly singing!

Now what else woudl i liek to avoid!
When i come to a club in your city (clubs Lemontree, not Stadiums, or else we woudl not have this discsussion, i would hie someone to do the thinking for me) i woudl like to leave a good example, that everyone liked it!

I hate the reviews liek, they are great but the sound was awful. And when you ask the bend they woudl say, yes it was an awful gig, we did not hear shit, the montioring was off, also ground loop problems.....ETC!

I dont think good band, well rehearsed is a key to get the good sound. !Well it plays a big role, but the the whole role, am i right?

Anyway, i like where this is going, so if anyone has some thoughts please let me now!

 

[LemonTree]

Here's a bad scenario:

You get to the club. There are three bands. You are the middle band. Your IEM rig is a splitter and a mixer in a rack. The headlining band is taking up a big part of the stage, and refuses to strike their gear. The opening bands must just do whatever they can to work around the headliners, and there is limited time allowed for changeovers. The only place for your IEM rack is over by the monitor board. The guitar player is now forty feet from the IEM rack. You only have thirty foot cables. There is no house monitor guy, you don't have one, the house guy is running monitors, and has never mixed IEMs before.

You are lucky enough to find a cable, without having to try and find a store at 7pm on Wednesday. You are also lucky enough to get a soundcheck. You start checking. The subwoofers are bleeding onto the stage, so the bass player and drummer need their mixes changed. Your drummer is set up in front of the headliner's kit, and the drums are blasting, so everyone else needs changes. Since the IEM rig is offstage, the band member who is running monitors must get offstage, run to monitor world, make changes, and run back. In the meantime, the house guy comes up and says "Hey, you guys are running your guitar amps direct. That's great, but there are ground loop issues. I'm getting lots of hum from them in the PA." Since your amps have XLR outs, none of you have DIs, which have ground lifts that would solve the problem. The house guy says he has two left. Unfortunately, you need three, two for guitars and one for bass.

The house guy tells you he is running out of time, since tweaking your monitor mixes took so long. And he needs to mic your amps. It starts to look like a real pain, the amps can't be directly hooked to FOH or the monitor rig. Working out a patching scenario will take too long, and you don't have enough people to pull it off anyway, with the time limits you have.

Doucheband response: "What the fuck? Why don't you have enough DIs for us? Our stuff works fine in other places. This place sucks."

Pro response: "This isn't working. Let's use the club's wedges tonight."

While unpatching your IEM rig, someone manages to break three XLRs on the house monitor split. The house guy informs you that he needs your IEM splitter for the night, as you have broken his. He tells you you can wait until the end of the night, or pick it up tomorrow. And you won't get paid until the club deducts the repair expense. You were planning on leaving after your set, you need to be up early for work. You live an hour away.

GREAT! I forgot just how much I DON'T miss it anymore

 

[LemonTree]

I like where this thread is going too

Here's another real life one for you too......

Summer 2003, the band are in the middle of a 42 date tour of UK and Ireland. We're in a city called Leicester. The Venue that was booked 5 months before when the tour was being put together has been closed because of fire regulations. The promoter has found a new venue. It's a small club 800 capacity....

We roll up at 5pm for the soundcheck. I as tour manager am in checking everything is in order. It's a small stage 16' wide by about 14 deep. The 12K rig that was hired for the larger venue is now cramed into this one. It's tight on stage but everything gets set up and soundchech goes ok.

5.45 the main support act turns up, realises the stage is tiny so I have to talk to their manager about setups and changeovers. It's the same deal, Bass, guitar, drums and vox. Their amps are smaller so they can sit right in front of ours, their drummer can use our kit as long as he uses his own snare and brass...everyone's pretty happy so we split to get something to eat and let them have their soundcheck.

we're back just before 7pm and as we arrive a LWB transit van arrives with the first support band. They're doing a 20 minute set and they have enough equipment to amplify the big venue the gig's been moved from. As tour manager it's up to me to tell them they can't possibly have all their gear on stage. So there's a big fuss untill the main support say they can use their amps...that's fine by me if it's ok with them...

But it's NOT ok because they're only used to their own equipment, (exchange here for your IEM setup) they won't compromise and refuse to play through another bands gear. That's because they're only used to doing things the one way. So what happens? As tour manager I have no other choice but to tell them they are off the bill and give the main support act an extra 20 minutes which they gladly accept.

Now that's just one instance where I had to do that because they COULDN'T be accomodated with all there gear but bear in mind that you'll get all sorts of club owners, FOH engineers, other tour managers that just WOULDN'T accomodate you not because they can't for lack of space but because it's making them go out of their way from the planned schedule. And when everything is running late, things are breaking down, bands are tired from being on the road, living out the back of a van that's exactly what happens out there.

If you turn up and you look like you're going to be a problem you could be off the bill before you even set foot on the stage. I'll be totaly honest with you, it can be absolutely rutheless at times.

Now THAT is a doucheband story

 

[xstatic]

Having done hundreds of shows where bands do bring in their own IEM rigs, I just don't think it is nearly as complicated as it seems in this thread.

Direct outs... As a FOH engineer, I would definately be opposed ro creating a mix fed by direct outputs from another console. Every time you reach over and adjust your mopnitor console there is the potential to change the FOH mix. To me that just is not right and you are shooting your FOH engineer in the foot. If youa re running to a console at all before sending signal to FOH than you are affecting that signal. You would be using the line amps which are different from the preamps, but affecting the signal none the less.

XLR Splitter.... An XLR splitter takes a single incoming signal adn creates two incoming signals. It will send one directly to your monitor console, and one directly to FOH. Now both mixers have virtually complete and independant capabilities so neither engineer has to worry about affecting the other engineers work. The Crest console has a male and a female XLR on every channel. All of your lines from stage would run into the female recepticle on the Crest console. Then you would run a line out of the male one directly to the main snake that feeds FOH. If you use the Allen Heath, it will be a little different. What you really need for that is a snake splitter. You would plug all of your stage lines into the splitter, and then run one set of split tails to the Allen Heath, and one to the FOH main snake. Basically this is exactly like the Crest console, but the split is external instead of being built into the console itself. The biggest advantage of the Crest is the ability to make 6 STEREO in ear mixes. In the end, the cost will be very close once you factor in all of the extra stuff you have to buy to make the Allen Heath integrate properly. The only real routing differences between the two consoles that will actually affect you are the extra sends that the Crest has to allow stereo mixes. In my opinion it is worth it. A proper stereo mix will allow you to hear more at a lower volume so it saves on your ears, and is more comfortable to listen to, and keeps you from overdriving your ear transmitters as easily. One mistake a lot of people make though when running stereo ears is hard panning. Somehow people think that stereo means panning something hard right and left. Try panning overheads at about 3:00 and 9:00, guitars at about 10:00 and 2:00, and spreading the toms around just a bit. This will allow a little more clarity between the instruments with out having to purely crank the volume up. With mono it is fairly easy to get into the "volume battle" trying to get things right and the result is often a wall of noise instead of an actual mix.

As far as the amps go.... I would still mic the amps. Maybe you should get in the habit of running a mic and a direct line to BOTH consoles. If you do not want to hear the mic, than mute it at the monitor console. This way the FOH engineer now has mics to work with and direct outputs to also blend in. Now you have actually created a desirable scenario for your FOH engineer. I would reccomend getting the mics set up in your monitors as well as if you did not have direct outputs. Once you have done that, mute the mics if you want and unmute the amp direct outs for your IEM mix. This way should a direct out go bad on you, all you have to do is mute those two channels and unmute the 2 channels with the mics.... problem solved. This is also a quick fix for noisy direct outs. That way if you do not have the time on stage to properly trouble shoot them you are still OK to proceed with the show.

As far as space on stage is concerned. If the IEM rig is assembled properly, it will not take up much space on stage at all. There is absolutely no reason at all that you can not find some sort of space on stage to put it that is convenient. If the stage is really that crammed, than you were bound to already have much larger problems than just integrating an IEM rig. All you have to do to make space for it is to unplug one of the floor wedges since they are not being used, take it off stage, and put your rack there.

One thing that people seem to have not noticed in this thread is that you are planning on using a constant click track. This right here makes wedges unusable since everyone wants to hear the click track. I am not sure, but it also sounds like you may be running a digital drum set? If so, I would reccomend putting the kick on one channel, snare on another, blending the toms to a stereo (2 channel) feed, and then acoustically micing the hat, and two overheads. Thats 7 channels for drums, one for bass, 4 for the 2 guitars, 2 for keys, 1 for vocal, 2 for back tracks, and 1 for click. That makes 17 channels. This could be an issue on a 16 channel board since most FX returns do not have access to all of the aux sends for monitors. You could cut the hi hat mic and readjust the overheads and that would probably work just fine. Or, you could drop the right line of the keyboards and make them mono. You could also take a chance and drop the 2 guitar mics which would leave you one channel left (spare channel). Whatever you do though, don't drop the 2 guitar mics for the FOH guy though.

What I reccomend is that you have your mixer, snake split, and all your IEM stuff racked in a single rack that you just roll right on to stage. I also reccomend that you carry all of your own mics and DI's to plug all of your stuff in. If you place the rack right in front of the drummer, none of your lines should need to be more than 25 feet line. I count that you will 6 mic stands (vox, 2 guitars, hat and OH's). Place your mics and then run them to the labeled channels on your split snake. Then run all of your direct lines to the proper channels on your split. Then take the tails form your split over to the main snake that feeds FOH. Hand the monitor engineer an inout list that shows the order that you have them plugged in (actually you should have given the house staff this inout list before the show). Let the house sound person plug the snake tails that you give him/her into their own snake since they may want to start the channels on something other than channel one. The tails that you hand the monitor engineer should be clearly labeled as to what channel number it is that also corresponds to your input list, and as to what instrument it is. I personally would always use the same order.... Kick, snare, toms, hat, OH's, bass, guitar 1 DI, guit 1 mic, guit 2 DI, guit 2 mic, keys, aux material (any triggered back tracks etc...), vocals. that would be a pretty standard set up that should easily match most any experienced engineers patterns and habits. Once you have your instruments set up on stage, all of this should only take 5 minutes to set up. If you teach each band member how to set up their own lines, the whole setup should not slow anything down at all. In many many ways, this will actually be easier and faster to do than a standard stage changeover.

In all of this, organization is the real key. Being able to do it all properly and do it yourself is really much better than relying on a different engineer and a different setup every night. In the end, if you have in ear monitors, it is much easier to do it yourself. In ears are great because it often makes FOH much easier and better to mix, and it often makes performers MUCH happier on stage. However, a bad in ear mix can absolutely destroy a set. I would much rather play to bad wedges than bad in ears. At least with wedges I can try and feed off the PA, and the bands stage sound. If you have a lot of digital stuff on stage though that can be nearly impossible. If you have control at your fingertips though, you can have it exactly the way that you want it. If it isn't, than it is your own fault.

The second you arrive at every venue I would go straight to the person who is running monitors that night night whether they be a dedicated monitor engineer, or a FOH guy running wedges from the main console. Hand them your input list, make sure you have a power drop for your rack, and find out where the main snake head, or at least where the subsnakes on stage are at so you can make sure well in advance that everything will work for you. Explain to him that your rig is tight, easy, and that you will do everything except patch the tails in. Explain to him that as a result of your preparations, that his night will not only be easier, but more fun as well. If he can not understand or accept this, than you were already going to have problems with him no matter what your setup was like. At this point you can at least be happy that as far as on stage goes, it will sound like you want it to.

 

[boingoman]

everyone's pretty happy

BAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHA! Famous last words. Awesome.


11miles,

Here's how I would do it. Basically it's the same as xstatic said. It's like you said, you want to be able to connect with a minimum of hassle, and make it as easy as possible. And like I said, more gear always means more work.

Xstatic pointed out that for a consistent sound, you need to use the same mics each time. That means bringing your own mics, mostly. That also means extra time to change them out. Again, not a problem, but just be aware.

So-

Equipment:

Mixer and splitter- either a board like the Crest, or a separate mixer and splitter.

Cables, cables, and more cables. If I was using the Crest, I'd want two 50 foot XLR snakes. One with a box for the inputs, and one with XLRs for the outs. This way, in most places, the IEM mixer can be onstage with the band if you don't have a monitor guy. The Crest would be in a rack, with enough space to hold the snakes, so they could already be plugged in.

If I was going to use a separate mixer and splitter, my splitter would have a 25' and a 50' tail. The mixer would be in a separate rack. This way the splitter could be offstage, and the mixer could either be on or off.

In either case, I would also have extra cables for perhaps sending the drum mix to the house monitor rig, for some extra thump for the drummer.

For my IEM packs, I'd have 30' cables for each person. I'd also have extenders, so I could make 50' cables if I needed them. I'd also have adapters in case something drastic happened and I needed to plug my IEM packs into the house monitor board or snake. To that end, I'd also have some dual mono-stereo adapters, in case I needed to dial up a stereo mix from two mono aux sends.

That brings up another thing- in practice, experiment with your mixes. Try mono, stereo, etc. Use your favorite, but realize that at some point, you may need to go mono, or still use wedges. Don't let the luxury of a great IEM mix cripple you in an emergency or less-than-ideal setting.

Someone (or more than one) needs to be THE MAN. In charge of packing, unpacking, knowing the whole system, and knowing how to patch in to other systems.

For instance, say you get to a club, and you have your 20 channel IEM rig. The house guy says "Vocals go in channels 24-28". Someone in your band has to be on top of things enough to figure out what to do.

There are three basic places your splitter can go.

1) Before the house split. The stage lines go to your splitter, then to the house split. Your splitter feeds FOH and house monitors, and your IEM rig.

2) After the house split, on the monitor side. The monitor split goes to your splitter. Your splitter feeds the house monitor rig and your IEM rig.

3) After the house splitter, FOH side. The FOH split goes to your splitter, which then feeds FOH and your monitor rig.

Depending on the venue, setup time, etc., you will need to be familiar with all these scenarios.

Generally, the easiest is to put your splitter after the house split, on the monitor side. This also makes for the easiest tear-down during a changeover. Also remember- Phantom power comes from one and only one console in these settings. It's almost always FOH. Turn yours off until told otherwise.

You may be asked to set it up beforehand and leave it all night. You may be asked to set it up and tear it down again. You never know.

Also, it's good to have a separate person to help. Sometimes, you won't be able to make this work without a helper. There is always someone willing to learn for a beer or two, who can help on time-critical gigs.

Direct rigs: The direct outs on most gear are far from good. By that I mean they are mostly shitty. Poor ground isolation and cheap balancing means that lots of gear directly hooked to a PA wil cause noise. The only real solution is to use passive direct boxes or mic them, not the line or XLR outs on your amps.

Bring amps. Showing up at the gig and finding a set of Yamaha 12 inch speakers to run your whole Pod-band out of is going to make you sad.

There is more, but I gotta go.

 

[xstatic]

Honestly, it sounds like the band may only need 6 microphones. I see no reason why you should not be able to have your own mics. Changing out mics is not an issue. If you have your own mics, then there are no mics to change out. You don't need to ever worry about sending your lines to any monitor console except your own. If you plug your leads form your own splitter into the main snake head at whatever venue you are in, then the signal will automatically go wherever the house normally runs theirs. This means that the house monitor and FOH console will already have your lines once you patch in your split. Should your ears completely fail, the house monitor engineer can bring up channels as necessary for the wedges. You can also have whomever normally runs the monitors in the venue dial up some kick and bass in the drum wedge to give the drummer a little more thump than the ears provide.

As far as cables goes, if your split is located in a rack with your mixer, than all you need is one tail long enough to reach your mixer, and one that is good and long to reach the main snake head. This could be one 5 foot split, and one 50 foot split. If you make sure that your splitter snake is only 24 channels or less, than the cable will not be as thick and can probably live in the same rack as the monitor mixer and IEM transmitters. So basically, I would always place your split before the house split. This leaves the most flexibility. If you have that many line inputs, you may need either some 1/4" inputs on your snake split, or a bunch of DI's handy.

As far as phantom power goes, monitor engineers usually handle all of the phantom powering unless not all the lines from stage are plugged into the monitor console. I personally prefer it this way because the FOH engineer does not always know exactly what mic ends up where, and because he/she can not always see the stage well enough. Also, it is usually the monitor engineer that places the mics, so they are usually the one that knows which channels need phantom. In this specific case I would run phantom power from the Mix Wiz or from the Crest monitor console. It also means you do not have to rely on someone else to make sure signal is present.

One thing that also makes this self contained setup so nice is that all of the opther changeovers (at least the ones before and after you are concerned) will be faster. While you are setting up your rack, the house guys can preset for the other bands since you would not be sharing any of the equipment and or mic lines. Once you are done with your set, all you have to do is get yourself off stage, and the monitor engineer at the venue just needs to repatch at the main snake head which takes seconds to do. I can do a 48 channel repatch in 120 seconds or less.

As far as grounding goes, it would not be a bad idea to have your own power moles as well. Two big guitar stacks, one bass rig, one keyboard, digital drums, small mixer, and 5 IEM transmitters should work just fine on one clean 20 amp circuit. Especially since you mentioned that the cabs would not be that loud. If you spend the extra 5 or 10 dollars per channel and have ground lifts installed in your snake split, this should not be an issue as far as grounding goes. If grounding is still an issue, there is a good chance that grounding was already an issue in that specific venue and that nothing you do on stage will really defeat it.

By placing your rack in front of the drums, you should really only need one cable that is more than 25 feet in length. Basically just for the vocal mic. I would reccomend that you give a lot of thought to your mic cables. Maybe even make some looms. Like 1 loom for bass and whatever guitar cab is on that side of stage, Two looms for drums (left and right), one for the other guitar/keys/vocal. Have a few extra cables on hand to extend the looms a little should it be necessary.

This whole thing really is not that complicated of a setup. It could be done in a very slick fashion. If so, house guys will not think badly of you. In fact, they will probably like it and appreciate the fact that you care enough to do something right. As far as spped goes, the bass player, guitar players, and keyboard player ought to be able to help get it all up. I would suggest that the bass and guitar players tune while the band before you is on stage. When it is your turn, set up your stacks and run your own lines. When you are done with that help the drummer with his lines as he/she gets set up. Once the lines are run, immediately start checking your own lines in your ears. Make quick and swift adjustments and then defer to whatever lines the FOH guy wants to hear first. Even with different mics each night though, it should only add about 60 seconds to your set up time. First, get the gain structure right for the new mic. If you do that properly, than the individual mix balances should be about right. Then quickly EQ the new mic till it is similar to what you are used to. EQq however would be the last thing to screw with. The vocal mic maybe, but if you get the gain structure to match what you are used to, that will be about 75% of what you need. As far as patching into the main snake, I would make a venue person do that. As long as you give them an accurate input list that is. On any other changeovers they would normally have to do a lot of that anyhow.

I really do not see how you should need more than 10 minutes to get all of your gear on stage, plugged in, and ears checked if you preset as much as possible. This would make for a very smooth changeover in my opinion. In reality, if you are organized, you can probably get set up and ears checked in the same amount of time that the previous band spent just getting their stuff off stage.

 

[11miles]

Great stuff!

Tjanks guys!


REally appreciate it!

I have doen some prices comparing and it seems that the crest is no SO expensive. Well it is but if i compare it to other's!
And also, it's more neat to do it with only a mixer with buitl in splitter!
A separate one is more to think about!

Great info, from all of you!

i Still dont agree with anyone who says that having your own setup is bad idea!
And it seems that you all proved it with your last posts!

There is so much i have to think about and it seems that a good idead would be liek x-static said, gettign someone to help us out!
Like a roadie, that would apart form doing the leg work, do also the monitoring!
A reliable one, who woudl know everything!

We are however havin galready a guy doing the FFOh mixes! For venues here, he brings the PA, pretty good one actually!
HE made the boxes himself with PD(precision devices) drivers in it! But i am also thinking about the thought of playing away form home!
Hopefully a lot of that is coming our way. And i woudl really liek to be at our best!
HAving a relable FOh engineer we all trust is a great think! So we are really not obsessed with how we sound, becuase he knwos us and our music well, and we trust him!
So we only have to really think about the monitoring!Well not jsut that, but i think you knwo what i mean!

I am thinking about what you said about the space on stage!

Well really for one rack the mixer and somene to be behind it, i think there is always enough room! Also takign away the monitoris we really dont need is an option!

I am really sorry i have made my status uncelar. BUt it seems that X have realized it by himself!

Yes we all have click so the wedges are really ut of the question!
Why we all need it?
Well i want to have a good show, and although i knwo a lot of bands use pre-count by drummer i hate it!
It is too oldfashioned!

So i was thinking we coudl all have click and start from complete silence all of us, liek this big impact....
also no need to really watch out for when someone kicks in, because you can hear him well! You don thave to look at him! You can look at the audience, god knwos they paid to look at you and vice versa not to see you looking at the drummer trying to communicate when to start a song!


Also the lighting is more cooler and liek i said a million times, having the mix you liek on stage is the best thing that coudl happen to a musician!
And maybe we are forgettign or some dotn realize that or jsut dont want to!
but what can be done is each member can have its own mix. That means no more fighting over who has what in the wedge monitors, and afterall you are in a place where only 2 liens are an option! ONe is for drummer and one is for singer offcourse! Everyone else is fucked!
NOw, everyone is creating a mix they want!moo stereo, loud more this, less that..... You name it!
And i think that really improves the groove of the band, not the other way aroudn like someone has stated!

But again think f this throguh the ears of the singer!


Do you realize how easy it is to sing (if you knwo how to begin with) if you hear yourself? Every singel note, clearly?The control of that is silly, really, so simple, ....
And you knwo wwhat also?
Ears dont hurt when you finish!

It is jus tlike you said with guitairst. You jsut stay next to your amp! And you hear yourself! Well singer cant!
If he wants it loud, feedback from wedges! If it's too low he shouts, lose voice! Not feelign comfortable, makes people angry! They dont come to the show again because the overall impression cant be bad......

Things to avoid here!!!!!!




About the sounds amps....

I use Rocktron Voddu Valve. L and R mono balanced out! The pre-amp is a knock-out. With built in pre and post parametrci eq, compressor, the digital shit in it is very cool, the valve does soemthin galso!

And best of all, i can really hear the speaker simulator in it when turned on!
I am happy with it!
I have done some presets on my active tannoy reveal monitors! Then took it to rehearsals and plugged it in the PA!
Our mixer is 20 years old! No ground loop no hum, no problems! The soudn was pretty awesome!
I would never run a marshal JCM 900 with line out, dircetly to the mixer. NEVER, god knwos i have tried and that is why i own a roctron. IT is so much more versitile!modern soundign, ..everything!
So i was doign some thinking about the real difference between micing and going direct!
I mean if i am creatign a sound on a monitros it is bound to soudn good on a PA!
If nto i am at least pretty sure, it will soudn way better thatn if you would mice it!
I have been witness to some really rough soudning coming from outta guitar speakers. The badn was really happy with the soudn on stage! But on the PA? jsut not the same thing!
There are really a lto of factors that can go wrong!
I liek the sound of a guitar cabinet, but i dont dislike the soudn coming direct outta pre-amp: !One that has built in or goes to a speaker simulator!

I also dont agree that emulators are for studio liek someone mentioned!

For studio i woudl always use cabinets! The sound you can tweak over and over agian, with live its ony there once and if you blew it you suck! That is a high risk, dont you think?
For live i would only use it where i could (bigger venue) I like to have as much silence on stage becuase of the acoustics itself as possible! And i knwo FOh engineers wont disagree!
I mean feedback from monitors, loud amps, just does not help teh FOH mix!
Also my expirience is, that when doing the soundchecks, no one is in there. no people. And the FOH can hear a lot of guitar sounds form cabinets, not having to be loud at all! SO the FOH man, even expirienced, can be certain the sound is good!
But we all knwo that when 500 people comes insted of empty venue the soudn differs! Suddenly the sound that was good poat soudn check neeeds readjsuting
(well ofcourse it does, it always needs adjusting the first 3 songs the most)

But maybe if you would have the majority of sound on the PA not relying on what comes of the stage you can rely do better job? And can be more at ease?
I am aksing, nto saying that!
HAving in mind tha the PA system is good!


MAybe that is really antoehr subject to begin but on teh other hand you can realy halp the FOh mix with going in-ear! And


The other guitarsist uses Pod XT. Also speaker simulator...with stero balanced out! We hooked up him also, no problem!