modes are confusing me

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corban said:
In addition to this, if you are using tunings other than an even-tempered scale, A# and Bb are actually not the same note. Depending on the scale you are in, A# might actually be a good deal lower than Bb.
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Jeeze, and I thought I was being anal by pointing out the functional difference!

:D :D :D
 
nkjanssen said:
Yes, A# and Bb are the same note (i.e. "enharmonic"). As are B# and C, but if you are talking music theory (which we are), there is a distinction in function. It's not proper to speak of C as the second note of an A# major scale. An A# major scale is spelled: A#, B#, C##, D#, E#, F##, G##, A#. Conversely, a Bb major scale is spelled: Bb, C, D, Eb, F, G, A, B. Same notes. DIfferent spellings. It would be wrong, from a music theory standpoint, to say that an A# major scale is spelled, for example: A#, C, D, D#, F, G, A, A#. Again, same notes, but wrong spelling.
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In addition to this, if you are using scales other than an even-tempered scale, A# and Bb are literally and audibly not the same note. Depending on the scale you are in, A# might actually be a good deal lower than Bb. You might call this jibber-jabber (and you might be correct) because the even-tempered scale is assumed in almost all situations, but it's not necessarily the only scale used. When you sing, you most likely subconsciously temper it a bit differently.
 
Codmate said:
Although I totally take the point that this doesn't make the track a 'D Dorian' track, this is a valid way of practicing the fingering for the dorian mode.
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Valid to practice a fingering pattern perhaps, but probably not a good practice method because it won't train your ear to hear what a dorian mode sounds like.
 
Sorry, NK, I deleted that post when I realized you'd already posted that, and then posted a modified version of it. How confusing. But yes, this is horribly anal. :D
 
corban said:
In addition to this, if you are using scales other than an even-tempered scale, A# and Bb are literally and audibly not the same note. Depending on the scale you are in, A# might actually be a good deal lower than Bb. You might call this jibber-jabber (and you might be correct) because the even-tempered scale is assumed in almost all situations, but it's not necessarily the only scale used. When you sing, you most likely subconsciously temper it a bit differently.
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On a guitar?.......jibber jabber.

:D :D :D :D

just kidding
 
Too many teachers will simply tell you that to play a major scale mode, you just start on a different note based on the order of the modes (ionian, dorian, phrygian, etc..) The problem is that even if you do this, many players still sound as though they are playing in the original key. For instance, if you want to play E Phrygian and you just play a C major starting on E, you might still sound as though you are playing in E major.

I take the parallel approach and learned the differences in the modes. There really aren't too many differences. For instance, the Mixolydian mode is ONE NOTE different from the Major scale.

Place the modes in either Major or Minor catagories.

Major

Ionian (same as the major scale)

Lydian (major scale with a raised fourth)

Mixolydian (major scale with a lowered seventh)


Minor

Dorian (minor scale with a natural sixth)

Phrygian (minor scale with a lowered second)

Aeolian (natural minor scale)

Locrian (who gives a crap!)

I've always felt that you are better off viewing a mode such as F Lydian as F Lydian and not as C major starting on an F.

Once you've got the notes for you modes down, you can harmonize them to come up with chords.

Or you can just forget all this and start on a different note from the major scale and always sound as though you are in that key.
 
I concur. I was taught the first way, but found that it was easier to wrap my head around things if I just learned the patterns of each mode. Anybody know the minor modes?


Oh, just saw that they're already listed.
 
Sirnothingness said:
I've always felt that you are better off viewing a mode such as F Lydian as F Lydian and not as C major starting on an F.
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I agree. Thinking of it as C major starting on F gives you a shortcut to figure out the fingerings, but it doesn't help you understand what you are hearing nearly as well.
 
OK, here's a question I've been confused about. At some point a jazz teacher mentioned that at some point I would learn the minor modes, but we never seemed to get around to that. Now that I see the list by SirNothingNess, I'm realizing perhaps I've been fooled into believing in some mythical modes that I don't know, when really they were just the Dorian,
Phrygian, Aeolian, and Locrian modes. Any thoughts?
 
Sirnothingness said:
Too many teachers will simply tell you that to play a major scale mode, you just start on a different note based on the order of the modes (ionian, dorian, phrygian, etc..) The problem is that even if you do this, many players still sound as though they are playing in the original key. For instance, if you want to play E Phrygian and you just play a C major starting on E, you might still sound as though you are playing in E major.

I take the parallel approach and learned the differences in the modes. There really aren't too many differences. For instance, the Mixolydian mode is ONE NOTE different from the Major scale.

Place the modes in either Major or Minor catagories.

Major

Ionian (same as the major scale)

Lydian (major scale with a raised fourth)

Mixolydian (major scale with a lowered seventh)


Minor

Dorian (minor scale with a natural sixth)

Phrygian (minor scale with a lowered second)

Aeolian (natural minor scale)

Locrian (who gives a crap!)

I've always felt that you are better off viewing a mode such as F Lydian as F Lydian and not as C major starting on an F.

Once you've got the notes for you modes down, you can harmonize them to come up with chords.

Or you can just forget all this and start on a different note from the major scale and always sound as though you are in that key.
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I disagree.
When I play in D dorian, I sound as though I'm playing D dorian even though
I was taught both ways. I see the validity of teaching the way you say you disaprove of, as it is far easier to communicate to a student.
I also believe mixing up keys and modes can be a confusing problem.

My teacher explained the theory of modes to me in the 'here are the modes in the key of C Major' way and then taught me the fingering by altering scales I already knew.

I don't see how one could play, in the mode of D dorian for instance, and 'sound as though your playing in C Major'. This seems a contradiction of terms as if you're playing in D Dorian you are indeed in the key of C Major. The two things are not mutually exclusive!

D dorian is simply a 'feel' of C Major, where the harmonic and melodic character of the piece treats D as the tonic, rather than C. It is literally a 'mode' of C Major. This is why they are called modes and are not treated as seperate keys.

If it 'sounds as though somebody is playing in C Major', and you want to call it a mode, then they are playing C ionian.

I'm having trouble explaining myself here - but to attempt to sum it up.
If it sounds as though somebody is playing in a certain mode, then they are, as what is sounds like is what defines the mode, not the fingering, how they were taught or anything else.

Like it or not, modes conform to keys - they are not keys in their own right.

Aeolian's conform to a relative minor, so I guess you could say maybe this is an exception. However - real minor scales are slightly different to the Aeolian mode, so calling an Aeolian scale a minor is really just a convenience.
 
nkjanssen said:
I agree. Thinking of it as C major starting on F gives you a shortcut to figure out the fingerings, but it doesn't help you understand what you are hearing nearly as well.
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Why not?

All you need to get the character of the mode is to play it up and down a few times.

I don't see how this way of thinking about modes as keys in their own right can help at all. I think it would confuse most students more than help.

When you can show me a mode with it's own key signature I'll accept what your saying. Until then I'll think of D dorian as being the key of C Major with D as the harmonic and melodic center.
 
Codmate said:
I disagree.
This seems a contradiction of terms as if you're playing in D Dorian you are indeed in the key of C Major.
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No, you're not. That's the point. Thinking of D Dorian and C Major as the same thing is misleading. Even though they are the same notes, they sound absolutely and completely different. To think of things that sound absolutely and completely different as being the same isn't really a good idea when you're tyring to train your ear. It makes you think about music in terms of fingering patterns rather than in terms of sounds. And, while a shortcut like that can be helpful at first, its not a good idea in the long run.
 
Codmate said:
When you can show me a mode with it's own key signature I'll accept what your saying. Until then I'll think of D dorian as being the key of C Major with D as the harmonic and melodic center.
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D Dorian has the same key signature as C Major. That doesn't mean it's the same key. A Minor has the same key signature as C Major too. When you're playing in A Minor, are you saying that you're really playing in C Major?
 
Codmate said:
All you need to get the character of the mode is to play it up and down a few times.
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To me, this is a backwards way of thinking. Your ear should guide your fingers, not the other way around. Admittedly, everybody does it the other way around when they are starting to play. But, ultimately, your fingers should be reproducing the sounds that your brain is telling them to, not your brain recognizing the sounds that your fingers are playing. It's a subtle but very, very important distinction.
 
I think another reason to treat a mode like it's own key is in the case of chord progressions that suggest a mode. For instance a popular mode for heavy metal music is phrygian, in which I would want to consider a chord progression in "E Phrygian" rather than refering to its major scale derivative.
I would not even want to consider it's parent major scale.
 
nkjanssen said:
No, you're not. That's the point. Thinking of D Dorian and C Major as the same thing is misleading. Even though they are the same notes, they sound absolutely and completely different. To think of things that sound absolutely and completely different as being the same isn't really a good idea when you're tyring to train your ear. It makes you think about music in terms of fingering patterns rather than in terms of sounds. And, while a shortcut like that can be helpful at first, its not a good idea in the long run.
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We're going to have to agree to disagree then.

I agree that D dorian sounds completly different to C Major - but I disagree that they are mutually exclusive.

D dorian is in the key of C major in exactly the same what that a Dmin7 chord is. Thinking of it in this way doesn't prevent you from playing the mode up and down and finding it's character. It doesn't prevent you composing in this mode.

In-fact my guitar teacher and I used to do an excercise together where he would go up the chords in the key of C Major and I would play in the relavant mode (e.g. D dorian over Dmin7, B locrian over B half-diminished).

I don't see how that leads to thinking of music in terms of fingering patterns rather than sounds. There is absolutly no connection between that method of teaching and thinking about modes and what comes out of the instument. By playing B locrian over B half-diminished I'm learning the character of the mode. I'm simply aware that it's in the key of C Major! When you play in B locrian do yuo stand there grinding your teeth thinking "must not remember that B locrian is in the key of C major... must not remember that B locrian is in the key of C major..."?

Of course you don't. You're as aware as I am that B locrian is in the key of C Major. Maybe you would prefer to say "B locrian has the same notes as C Major"? Maybe that you make you happy?

It still doesn't mean B locrian gets it's own key signature though.

I still see and hear the modes as their own entities - but like it or not, they have the same key signatures as the key the mode resides in.

As I said - show me a mode with it's own key signature and maybe I'll agree with you.

I'm quite happy to post up a clip of me playing over Nature Boy in D Aeolian. It will most definitly sound like I'm playing in D Aeolian - even though I am aware that I'm in the key of F major. How do I do it?!
I guarentee it will not sound as though I'm in F ionian - even though I'm perfectly aware that I'm in the key of F Major. It's just amazing!
 
nkjanssen said:
To me, this is a backwards way of thinking. Your ear should guide your fingers, not the other way around. Admittedly, everybody does it the other way around when they are starting to play. But, ultimately, your fingers should be reproducing the sounds that your brain is telling them to, not your brain recognizing the sounds that your fingers are playing. It's a subtle but very, very important distinction.
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Ummm - I was talking about learning the mode - not using it for improvisation.

How else are you meant to get the character of a scale?
 
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