Solved Modes and scales

[EpiSGpl8r]

how do u know what fret and string to start on for the modes of the c scale like the lydian, and the other weird ones..

 

[foo]

A mode is a major scale played from a non-tonic note to a non-tonic note.


What that means is that a C Lydian mode is a C Major scale played from F to F. The way that particular mode differs from an F Major scale is that it has a B natural, whereas an F Major scale has a Bb in it (etc. etc.)

The modes (in C) are:

Ionian* = C to C
Dorian' = D to D
Phrygian' = E to E
Lydian* = F to F
Myxolydian" = G to G
Aeolian =' A to A
Locrian^ = B to B

* = Major
' = Minor
" = Dominant
^ = Half-Diminished

. . . and they're not weird. They actually make your life very easy for playing in different keys.
And when using them to solo, you start and end where it sounds right.
This allows you to play over (for example) A Minor using any one of the three major scale shapes that A Minor appears in (i.e. G, F and C).

As an exercise, try playing the five major scale shapes around the circle of fourths, starting with your middle finger at G on the third fret (one fret per finger and move your hand as you need to) and working your way through them all as follows:

G Major scale - from low F# to high A and back down again
C Major scale - from low G to high A and back down again
F Major scale - from low G to high Bb and back down again
Bb Major scale - from low G to high Bb and back down again
Eb Major scale - from low G to high Bb and back down again

The next step around the circle is Ab - so you move the entire exercise up one fret and do it all again. Keep going until you get to the 15th fret and then go all the way back down again only this time go around the circle of fifths (i.e. G, D, A, E, B, F# etc.)
Make sure you play all up/down strokes smoothly and slowly enough to play it perfectly. Doing this slowly and perfectly is VERY IMPORTANT. You are programming your fingers to do this without you having to think about it. Speed will come.


Hope this helps.

foo

 

[Lopp]

Further to foo's useful advice, a great way to remember your modes starting with major (Ionian):

"If Dora Plays Like Me, All's Lost"

Thus,

Ionian(Major) Dorian Phrygian Lydian Myxolydian Aolean(Minor) Locrean

Therefore,

Ionian is the mode starting at the first note in the C major scale
Dorean is the second (D)
Phrygian is the third (E)
Lydian is the fourth (F)
Myxolydian is the fifth (G)
Aolean(Minor) is the sixth (A)
Locrean is the seventh (B)

 

[philboyd studge]

Damn you guys are smart. 46 years of guitar playing and I don't know any of this stuff.

 

[foo]

Bottom Line time:

It don't mean a thing if you ain't got that swing . . . !!!

Hey - that would make a good song.



foo

 

[djc]

Damn you guys are smart. 46 years of guitar playing and I don't know any of this stuff.

Me too. I guess I've been a lazy mofo.

 

[philboyd studge]

I blame it on the city and state college system in California. I ended up majoring in English. Actually I majored in the GI bill but that's another matter. Couldn't even use music a a minor, you had to play an orchestra or band instrument or keys or sing, no guitar. Plus there were performances.......hell, I'm going to cancel a real gig to play some drival? I think not.

Guess I'm just bitter.

 

[AlChuck]

A mode is a major scale played from a non-tonic note to a non-tonic note.

Well, close, foo...

A mode is a pattern consisting of set intervals of whole and half steps.

A major scale is one set of possible combinations of whole and half steps. If you start at a different note but follow the same inervals as the major scale, follow the sequence, you get seven possible patterns, the modes that you mentioned. But there are others, such as the harmonic minor scale and the modes built on it, and the symmetric scales like the diminished (half-whole-half-whole-half-whole). I don't know how many possible permutations of half or whole steps are possible between the 12 notes or any subsets thereof (for example, the major scale modes are seven-note patterns).

 

[foo]

The question raised cited 'Lydian and the other weird ones'.
For the sake of my audience (in this case EpiSGpl8r) who is obviously a theory beginner, I decided that too much information was exactly that - too much information.

The tone of his question indicated to me that he's probably not learning Charlie Parker solos, so I went with what's simple.

You are exactly right - but my view is that when a newbie asks "what time is it" he doesn't need to know what time it is in every time zone in the world, nor how those different times are relevant or not to his situation.

If, at some point in the future, Epi needs more information, I'm sure he will seek it out. In the meanwhile, I gave him the information he asked for that he can most easily use.

foo

 

[JR#97]

When I learned guitar, I learned all the modes blah blah blah.
But I learned more applicable knowledge by learning the pentatonic scales and then filling in the blanks to get the major and minor scales etc. The pentatonic scales also relate better to chords and vice versa. At least for me anyway.

 

[maddrummer]

C lydian doesn't start on F!!!!

Just to clarify something for you a C lydian does not start on an F. An F lydian starts on F and takes the key signature of C.

On guitar you should learn the modes as patterns as well as knowing what exactly you are doing. I'm sure you can play a major scale, and if you move to a different fret and play that same pattern, it's still a major scale.

So you can think of it this way
Ionian- Major scale (you should know this one)
Dorian- Starts on the 2nd scale degree of Ionian
Phrygian- 3rd scale degree of Ionian
Lydian- 4th scale degree of Ionian
Mixolydian- 5th scale degree
Aeolian- (Also known as minor) 6th scale degree
Locrian- 7th scale degree.

So if u have to play any given mode, you can either think of the pattern of it, and just do it, or refer it back to the ionian to find out what key you have to play it in. (i.e. a F# Mixolydian will go from F# to F# but in the key of B)

 

[AlChuck]

For the sake of my audience (in this case EpiSGpl8r) who is obviously a theory beginner, I decided that too much information was exactly that - too much information.

The tone of his question indicated to me that he's probably not learning Charlie Parker solos, so I went with what's simple.

You are exactly right - but my view is that when a newbie asks "what time is it" he doesn't need to know what time it is in every time zone in the world, nor how those different times are relevant or not to his situation.

If, at some point in the future, Epi needs more information, I'm sure he will seek it out. In the meanwhile, I gave him the information he asked for that he can most easily use.

OK, cool... I just wanted to point out that it was a little more general than just the seven modes of the major scale. I didn't think the extra information was at all confusing. In fact, I find that understanding the basic idea rather than one example of it makes things clearer to me. But then that's me... I know there other ways to learn and understand that are just as valid, if not more so...

So if u have to play any given mode, you can either think of the pattern of it, and just do it, or refer it back to the ionian to find out what key you have to play it in. (i.e. a F# Mixolydian will go from F# to F# but in the key of B)

That's one of those things that can start a big discussion. There's the "you already know the major scale, therefore you know the Mixloydian -- play the major scale a fourth up, etc." approach -- the parent scale approach. Then there's the "learn the form of the mode relative to its root -- e.g. the Mixolydian is a major scale with the seventh flatted" approach. Each approach to understanding and applying modes probably has its die-hard adherents.

From my own experience, I tried the parent scale method and it got me almost nowhere. By the time you see a chord change and try to think. "OK, it's a dominant chord, so I can play the major scale starting a fourth higher," and try to positon my hands, it's just too late. Recently I've started to try thinking of the mode itself and how it can be used. I can see a dominant chord and think "I can use the Mixolydian mode on this," and not have to think of another scale that's relative to the harmony that I'm seeing -- I just think "dominant, so flat the seventh." Or "minor chord acting as a ii moving to a V chord, so flat the third and seventh..."

Not only does this seem to me more direct as far as keeping track of where you're at in the harmony, it captures the essence of the chord flavors -- Dorian or Phrygian for minor seventh chord sounds, Ionian or Lydian for major seventh chord sounds, Locrian for minor seventh flat five chords -- of many of the most commonly-used chords. It's a functional way of understanding the modes, and while it's arguably harder to master, I think it's more valid and to the point than the parent scale approach. It's easier to play the modes musically if you know them as a set of interval spacings that workover a particular harmony. The parent scale approach is almost more of a curiosity, a mathematical trick. It's only the parent scale because it's the most common scale that every starts learning with. Actually the various modes came first, and the Ionian one just happened to be most -- I don't know, balanced or "normal" sounding -- to our Western ears, and was eventually dubbed the major scale and taught as a fundamental thing. To me, playing the right major scale always sounded clumsy to me, and it was hard to find the sound of the chord. It was always "just wiggle your fingers around these notes and they should sound right." But they never really did. Now that I know the modes functionally, they are much easier to apply in a musical, sensible manner.

 

[maddrummer]

I agree with you exactly, that's why I said that you should learn them in more than one way, to make it more thorough.

 

[Lopp]

No doubt.

For me, I found it easiest to use the mathematical trick because I already knew major and minor up and down the neck. All I had to do was transpose to the appropriate pattern.

However, when using a given mode, you have a better foundation understanding the intervals as they relate to that mode, as opposed to thinking of everything as relative to major.

However, starting out with major as a basis was just too easy for me when I knew it everywhere on the neck.

It is too late for me.


Btw, regarding other modes, don't forget melodic minor. A different pattern ascending than descending. Fun stuff!

 

[Aaron Cheney]

Couldn't agree with AlChuck more.
I practiced modes based on the parent scale for years and just never "got it". I would practice, say, C Ionian, then D Dorian, then E Phrygian, and so on.
Then someone told me that I needed to start thinking of them individually, rather than as "descendants" of a "master scale". Once I began practicing them this way, i.e. C Ionian, then C Dorian, then C Phrygian, etc... the light bulb finally clicked for me. I could finally identify each by its own particular sound.
From there I started trying to learn what modes worked over what chords, as Al Chuck described.

Aaron
http://www.voodoovibe.com

 

[maddrummer]

Thats funny that you mention the melodic minor because we were just talking about that the other day. A few years ago I learned it as different ascending and descending, and now they (some places, not all) teach it as the same up and down. It's a pain when you've learned one way then all the sudden they want to change it on you. Whatever though, just wanted to let you know that you might hear it differently depending on who you talk to, and neither way is wrong.

 

[Lopp]

Yeah. I was aware of the controversy, but haven't investigated it enough to comment.


Goll durn young trendy whippersnappers messing with well established theory!


(What're they trying to do, be original and creative or something?)

 

[64Firebird]

When I learned guitar, I learned all the modes blah blah blah.
But I learned more applicable knowledge by learning the pentatonic scales and then filling in the blanks to get the major and minor scales etc. The pentatonic scales also relate better to chords and vice versa. At least for me anyway.

I agree compleaty! I learned a lot of scales and modes, but now I don't use any of them. Hell, I don't even remember most of them. I choose my notes by the way they will lay over the chord. However, scales and modes are the fastest way to learn it.

 

[AlChuck]

A few years ago I learned it as different ascending and descending, and now they (some places, not all) teach it as the same up and down. It's a pain when you've learned one way then all the sudden they want to change it on you. Whatever though, just wanted to let you know that you might hear it differently depending on who you talk to, and neither way is wrong.

I think it depends on the context you learn it in. Technically the melodic minor scale is different going up and down, period. But jazz players use the ascending form as the parent scale for a couple of very useful modes, and they call it the jazz minor, or the melodic minor, or the ascending form of the melodic minor (the most accurate name). The most widely-used mode derived from it is the mode built on the seventh tone of the ascending form of the melodic minor, called the Superlocrian. It sounds much hipper used over various flavors of dominant chords in various ways than the Mixolydian mode does.

 

[foo]

It's pretty interesting to see how different people use/process the information in different ways.

I don't actually think of the modes at all - I just find the dominant chord, that tells me the key and then I adjust the notes to fit the sound I'm looking for over the changes.

Oh by the way - do you guys know "Proud Mary"



foo

PS - Yeah maddrummer - I guess C Lydian would actually be a G Major scale from C to C.