Modelers In Live Settings

[notCardio]

Hey JCM900

Where the hell is Petersburg? I'm pretty sure I've been there, but it was a long time ago.

 

[JCM900]

its in southern Indiana, ya'all.

 

[espskully]

In my experience - modelling amps don't quite hit the mark in live situations. I like them for studio apps - but live they just don't sound or react quite right. Just my opinion.

 

[notCardio]

its in southern Indiana, ya'all.

OK, I looked it up. I think it was when I had to go hunting a guy from Jasper who stole an amp.

I also have some friends who came from Bicknell, and my great aunt lived in Princeton. I also had a friend in college that came from Tell City, so we ran all over that area. My one-time future brother-in-law moved to Shoals, and I'm originally from Terre Haute.

I knew it sounded familiar.

 

[notCardio]

In my experience - modelling amps don't quite hit the mark in live situations. I like them for studio apps - but live they just don't sound or react quite right. Just my opinion.

Oh, I agree with you on that one. It's just not the same. The sound is like playing a recording. But it might be different in a large outdoor setting, where everythings miced anyway. It still wouldn't sound the same to you, on stage, but it might not be too bad to the audience on a huge PA. And I have heard a band in a small (and I mean small) bar that the bass player and 1 of the guitarists used modelers and it sounded pretty good. The part that didn't sound good was mostly the soundman's fault.

 

[Monsterpop]

Has anyone noticed that real musicians use real amps...
and only modeling musicians use modeling amps?

yeah,,and ive also noticed that"real musicians" have "real roadies"
and usually more"real money" than the rest of us

its not really an option to jump on a plane with yer Marshall Stack,,
,,but the Pods ideal!

anyway,,,i reckon each to their own.
ive used both my POD and POD live Xt through 2 amps,,
one at each side of the stage,,,
and directly through the P.A
and ive enjoyed a MIGHTY stereo guitar sound from the P.A,,
mores so than with the amps

so id go with that,,if the monitors are up to it of course

 

[Farview]

Also, if you are going on tour in Europe (from a US point of view), you won't be able to bring your own rig. You will be using rented stuff that will be different every night. If you have a POD, you can plug that into just about anything they give you and have some semblance of your sound.

 

[JCM900]

Ok, another "silly" question. Why would you WANT to go on tour in europe?
Whats wrong with touring right here in the good old U.S. of A.?
From what I've heard of american bands touring europe, is that they cant find a market here, or simply aren't up to par with the good bands touring here. By the way, I am not flaming anyone here...

 

[Lt. Bob]

As you know, I play live LOTs ...... at least 5 gigs a week and I have a POD and a V-Amp and a J-Station and several Digitechs.
Now ..... some of these resort gigs I do out on the beach, I've gotten to where I use a modeler for a couple of reasons ..... main one being less crap to carry around plus not wanting my good amps on the beach in the sun with the constant possibility of rain.
Basically ..... they manage to barely sound good enough that I keep using them but they really suck compared to an actual amp.
The biggest thing with modelers is that they have no dynamics. On a good tube amp .... when you play something and want to bring it out a little bit .... all you have to do is pick a little harder and the amp responds. But modelers don't ...... they play at basically one volume and you just don't have the control via your picking that you do with an amp.
Now ..... you can have a buttload of presets that you've set up so you have all these fine graduations in volume level and drive and switch among them. That'd take care of it but it's a long process to get them all tweaked 'cause what you program at the house mostly bears little resemblence to what you need live.

So ..... I use modelers on gigs that don't really matter much and amps for anything I care about.

 

[Farview]

Ok, another "silly" question. Why would you WANT to go on tour in europe?

Because that's where your fan base is. No point in playing to people who hate you or empty rooms.

Whats wrong with touring right here in the good old U.S. of A.?

Nothing, if you want to lose money. You have to put this into perspective. The good 'ole US of A is less than 1/3 of the worlds music buying public. There are more people buying CDs elsewhere than there are here.

From what I've heard of american bands touring europe, is that they cant find a market here, or simply aren't up to par with the good bands touring here. By the way, I am not flaming anyone here...

Finding a market here, most of the time, means playing the same stuff that everyone else is. Then in a couple years, a new fad comes around to take your place. In other countries, they have a more open system. Radio stations will play everything from Dimmu Borgir to David Hasselhoff, instead of the strict formats that we have here. So more music gets out to the people and generates more sales.

Here, you have to hire a marketing firm to try to get your songs played on the small number of stations that have the appropriate format. This costs thousands of dollars a week. Then distribution becomes an issue. In europe, it is easier to get a distibution deal because of the greater acceptance of all types of music.

 

[Lt. Bob]

I have thought about doing this before, and I always figured I would buy a medium size keyboard amp (maybe 60 watts?) to use more or less as my own monitor. Even with this route you want speaker simulation ON, since the keyboard amp is a full range speaker, basically a P.A - not a guitar cab.

I have never tried it, but I am convinced it would work.

It would definitely work; but once you get to the point of hauling around a keyboard amp to plug your modeler into ...... then why not just haul around an amp?

 

[apl]

Well, how 'bout a PODxt Live (~$400 street) just for the FX sims and then into a nice amp? And then you could use the Live in the studio. If I was recording a song, it seems it would be nice to have three or four or more nice but distinct guitar tones, like my faux strat through a Twin, the Carvin through a Mesa, and the Sorrento through an old VOX.

 

[Lt. Bob]

Well, how 'bout a PODxt Live (~$400 street) just for the FX sims and then into a nice amp? And then you could use the Live in the studio. If I was recording a song, it seems it would be nice to have three or four or more nice but distinct guitar tones, like my faux strat through a Twin, the Carvin through a Mesa, and the Sorrento through an old VOX.

That sounds like a pretty good plan. I forgot that on the XT you can bypass the amp sim .... on the POD 2.0 you can't. Although you can always think of the amp sims as a fancy overdrive pedal.
But with the XT you can use it as just a FX pedal board.
That's pretty cool.

 

[ocnor]

But modelers don't ...... they play at basically one volume and you just don't have the control via your picking that you do with an amp.

I don't completely agree with that. Amps are more dynamic but you can still get dynamics from a modeler. Here is a short clip that I just threw together using my V-Amp Pro. The first part is a clean patch and the neck pickup of my strat. The second part is a mild distortion patch with the bridge pickup. You can clearly hear the difference as I alter my picking.

 

[amra]

I couldn't get Ocnor's clip to play, but I agree with what he is saying. The whole concept that a modeler doesn't allow you any kind of dynamics is simply not true, and can be easily demonstrated.

As to why one would take use a modeler and a KB amp, instead of a real amp - I think it would be useful for bands that do a lot of covers of varied types of music, or for a guitar player that likes to vary his sound alot...

 

[Lt. Bob]

When I play live with a modeler .... it's often difficult to get it to cut thru the mix. If a patch isn't loud enough ..... picking harder will not get it to be loud enough.
I'm not saying a modeler has no dynamics, I guess that wasn't clear ..... I'm just saying it doesn't have enough. And I'm not just some amateur putting down on something he doesn't understand.
I'm a live musician who makes his full time living playing live and doing nothing else ..... no day job ..... no sessions ... strictly live performance and I'm good at it. Within 3 weeks of moving to Florida where I knew absolutely no one I was playing 5 and 6 gigs a week and it's headed up to the 9 or 10 a week mark.

I probably play live more than anyone on this board and I've probably played live with a modeler more than most although that's an area where some here have done it more. But I'm talking about hundreds of gigs with a modeler and maybe 10,000 gigs as a player so I'm not a newbie who doesn't know anything.
Prove all you wish ..... but lack of dynamic response is one of the main drawbacks to modelers in a live setting and that's not just my opinion. I've heard it from lots of live players and these are top notch players.
I'm not a modeler hater which is reflected in the fact that I have a half dozen of them.
But my Mesa ..... or my Marshall 6101 ..... or my Ampeg VT22 or my Ampeg VT40 or my ReverbRockett or my V-2 or my Hot Rod deVille or my Vox Ac15 will all smoke a modeler in every way except convenience and they don't have all the FX.

YMMV

 

[ocnor]

I couldn't get Ocnor's clip to play, but I agree with what he is saying. The whole concept that a modeler doesn't allow you any kind of dynamics is simply not true, and can be easily demonstrated.

As to why one would take use a modeler and a KB amp, instead of a real amp - I think it would be useful for bands that do a lot of covers of varied types of music, or for a guitar player that likes to vary his sound alot...

If you still care to hear the clip I put it on SoundPrick.
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/pagemusic.cfm?bandID=154414

 

[Lt. Bob]

If you still care to hear the clip I put it on SoundPrick.
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/pagemusic.cfm?bandID=154414

I just got home from a gig and had a chance to listen
Very nice clip ..... thanks for that.

Yeah, there's definitely some dynamic response going on there. Any particular patch or do you feel they're all that responsive? I have a V-Amp and I like it better than my POD by a large margin.

I still question whether that's enough to make me happy, but I think I'll break out the V-Amp a little more.

 

[Sirnothingness]

So Arvo, are you hitting the coffee house circut?

 

[ocnor]

I just got home from a gig and had a chance to listen
Very nice clip ..... thanks for that.

Yeah, there's definitely some dynamic response going on there. Any particular patch or do you feel they're all that responsive? I have a V-Amp and I like it better than my POD by a large margin.

I still question whether that's enough to make me happy, but I think I'll break out the V-Amp a little more.

A medium distortion patch seems the most dynamic because it can be cleaned up or dirtied up a little. With a fully clean or distorted patch only the volume will change hence it will seem less dynamic. The lack of full control over the compressor and noise gate only exasserbate this lack of responsivness. Much like a Dynacomp you can really hear the compressor clamping down. By increasing the attack time to at least 7ms with a ratio of 2:1 or 2.5:1 it is less noticeable. The noise gate is the tricky part as there is only one control. When set too high it kills all of the dynamic response and too low of a setting yields a sound akin to Flash Gordon's spaceship from the old black and white series. I can almost picture a V-Amp hanging from strings with sparks shooting out of the back.