Mixing secrets by sonusman

[PD9L]

Gidge, I am OFFENDED by that!

I don't "stalk" Brucey Bear! Indeed a DO harass him.

Mixerman has proven NOTHING to me. The only thing we really know about him is that he wrote a long winded fable about recording a band.

Fuckwad, don't put words in my mouth. I really fucking hate it when people do that. It is a really lame ass way to argue points.

 

[mshilarious]

Sorry I made a typo - 200Hz, not 200k.

Darn, I thought you were suggesting resistor values . . . it enhanced the surrealism of the thread. Now it seems somehow more ordinary

 

[Gidge]

Gidge, I am OFFENDED by that!

I don't "stalk" Brucey Bear! Indeed a DO harass him.

Mixerman has proven NOTHING to me. The only thing we really know about him is that he wrote a long winded fable about recording a band.

Fuckwad, don't put words in my mouth. I really fucking hate it when people do that. It is a really lame ass way to argue points.

i got something else i could put in your mouth.......

Mixerman has nothing TO prove to you.....who are you?.....

anyone who works on a Hilary Duff record is cool by me.......

 

[PD9L]

 

[AardvarkPSW]

It is far easier for them to "accept" what they got when they are faced with paying for it again to fix THEIR mistakes in the mix.

So you know in advance the artist is going to be wrong and that they will make mistakes in your mix??? Do you base this on the fact that instead of getting an audio professional to mix their project they hire a home construction contractor?

When consulting with your real job clients do you recommend to them that they hire record producers to re-pin their foundations or do you sub-contract the job to folks who specialise in that arduous and messy task?

Do you hire mix engineers to tape the drywall joints or do you bring in tapers who are good at putting the right amount of mud in the right places?

Do you ensure that the guy doing your electrical work is a papered expert who works to code or do you rely on a second engineer that has read about it on the internet?

If your client wants an electrical socket installed illegally do you do it and make them "accept their mistake" or do you advise them they need a GFIC on that plug by the sink? Surely you work to code and let them know when there ideas contravene that code...any professional would.

You KNOW they are never going to be fully happy with it. No use going into the process with pretentions at all.

I approach every mix with the idea that the client is going to go "Fuck WOW That's GREAT!!!" when they sit down in my chair for playback.

In golf, the great players always talk about visualising a good shot before swinging the club...if you start every mix knowing the client won't be happy with it you are doing them and yourself no favour. You are setting yourself up for the failure you have predicted.

(The word is pretensions BTW, but using pretense would also work well!....This is called being pedantic hehehehehe!)

Myself, I just got tired of giving away hours of my time to products that were going nowhere.

Purgamentum init, exit purgamentum

...the homeowner gladly pays me what I ask to do that work!

So stick to working with homeowners. If they are happy to pay you and your audio clients are, by your description, demo level and always going to make mistakes in your mixes then you clearly miss the obvious!

Cheers,
Aardvark


P.S....Hehehehehee

 

[mshilarious]

See, this is what concerns me about PSW types posting here. Sure it's great to get real pro advice, but I don't like being told I should hire a pro to do everything. This board has a nice DIY ethic. It so happens I designed my studio, I do my own drywall and electrical work, I mod or even make much of my gear (and all of my cabling ), I built my PC and my rack, I maintain and play all my instruments, and oh yeah I do my own mixes too.

I read a lot of pros on PSW griping about how they are forced to mix too loud. I've heard a lot of contractors complain about idiot homeowners making constant stupid changes. I respect them because they have to put food on their families' tables, but at the same time I'm glad I have no such problems

 

[Son of Mixerman]

Hahaha!! Of course.

Washington State is even worse when it comes to hockey!!

What...apples and rain as the main exports?

Cheers,
Aardvark

Washington State?

Hockey? Ha! hah hah hahah ahahh ha. That aint Hockey!

When I moved to Seattle as a teen it only took a month to realize my skates were no longer need. The Ice Chalet was the only place to go locally and it was more like a frozen sewage spill.

We don't export rain, its strictly an import. Apples are good though.

I can vouch for Mixermans authenticity and Harvey can vouch for my vouch

I can also say that MM was the first person to explain stereo bus compression in such a way that I understood not only the importance of using it but understanding how dangerous misusing it is. But, before anyone can learn something you have to listen to the advice first, and go try it for yourself second, and keep trying until you get it third.

Experience is built upon Experience.

Sometimes that experience has to come from people who have walked the road before you.

If someones attitude is such that kneejerk reactions are common to new information...how does that person ever learn?




Using your eyes is a dangerous precedence when mixing. For several reasons.
The first reason is that the waveform display on your monitor is a semi- accurate graphical representation. There are sometimes transients that look bad, but are not. Music does not look like it sounds. Another reason is that your brain actually adjusts your senses to give you better perception with whatever organ your trying to use. When you focus your eyes intently on a visual, your ears will become less sensitive and vise versa.

Using your eyes for checking on certain things are ok obviously.

In the world of analog it becomes more important because a good portion of the analog stuff really doesn't start working until the meters are pegged and the red lights are dancing.

We don't make this stuff up, it comes from people like MM, Aardie and Brucie Bear who are willing to share their experiences, both good and bad.

Peace,
SoMm

 

[corban]

I of course agree with the sentiment that you should trust your ears and not your eyes, and it's been good to hear this emphasized so much again here, as it just was a few posts ago. I will definitely be turning off my monitor for my next mix session. However, Ed did make the valid point that if you're in a room in which you're not going to hear a couple of errant kicks because the low end in your room is completely unreliable, you can use your eyes to spot potentially problematic spots. Can you 100% rely on your eyes? Obviously not. But in such a room you can't 100% trust your ears either. The best solution is probably to treat your room better. It is a home recording site though, and situations are not always ideal.

 

[AardvarkPSW]

See, this is what concerns me about PSW types posting here. Sure it's great to get real pro advice, but I don't like being told I should hire a pro to do everything.

Not suggesting you need to hire a pro to do everything but I was trying to proffer up a little pro advice to the readers here.

Do not take a negative attitude into the session.

Do not assume the client is going to force you into "mistakes".

Do not project negatives in any way, to yourself or the client.

Be smart enough to know that you don't know everything but make sure you know more than the client!! Hehehehe.

It is also very handy to have a good bedside manner, a thick skin and a sense of humour in the studio.This also comes in handy on the internet!



Cheers,
Aardvark

 

[Barish]

Be smart enough to know that you don't know everything but make sure you know more than the client!! Hehehehe.

Heheeee.


Doctor Spin in the ward




Aardy you rock.


B.

 

[mshilarious]

The first DAW software I used had mixer automation but very limited editing features. I could do fades but not much else, without volume envelopes I had to set the automation and ride the fader just like a real console. Were my mixes better because I had to use my "ears" and not my "eyes"? No, but they sure were a lot slower

Before that I used a Tascam 424, which can easily be used blindfolded. I don't think my mixes were better then either.

What the hey, why don't we just mix Tommy style and use the Force



(sorry for the mixed metaphor)

 

[vestast]

Please explain.

If this is a hockey related comment, and you are indeed from Washington...you must be kidding!! Washington is to hockey what Washington is to bi-partisan governance!


Washington Capitals (clever name eh!)....

...Perhaps the greatest playoff failure team in the history of the NHL.





Where were we?


Cheers,
RocketRichardVark

The Habs are great this year unless they have to play my Sens.

Sorry - back to the flame war.

 

[chessrock]

anyone who works on a Hilary Duff record is cool by me.......

Yea, I can sort of agree with that. But on the other hand, anyone who actually buys a Hilary Duff record ... has some issues. I hope you're not one of them, Gidge.

 

[snow lizard]

Darn, I thought you were suggesting resistor values . . . it enhanced the surrealism of the thread. Now it seems somehow more ordinary

I didn't post the idea of having a parade where instead of getting a marching band, everyone could hold up signs with a chunk of waveform drawn on them simply because the idea is far too surreal. It doesn't support anyone's position in this thread, and may be considered off topic by those now discussing hockey.


sl

 

[Mixerman]

See, this is what concerns me about PSW types posting here. Sure it's great to get real pro advice, but I don't like being told I should hire a pro to do everything. This board has a nice DIY ethic. It so happens I designed my studio, I do my own drywall and electrical work, I mod or even make much of my gear (and all of my cabling ), I built my PC and my rack, I maintain and play all my instruments, and oh yeah I do my own mixes too.

I read a lot of pros on PSW griping about how they are forced to mix too loud. I've heard a lot of contractors complain about idiot homeowners making constant stupid changes. I respect them because they have to put food on their families' tables, but at the same time I'm glad I have no such problems

I don't think anyone is suggesting that you or any home recorder should hire a pro. We are merely pointing out how pro's might approach a situation. Being a defeatest, no matter what your level or your work ethic, is sure to be a self-determined prophecy.

Now, I'm not sure what a "PSW type" is, but we have members ranging from the entirely uninitiated to icons of the industry. Yes, there are some discussions among pros about the politics of the music industry. These conversations might not affect you now, but if you're trying to make your records sound like major label releases (and for the record, I don't think that should necessarily be your bar), then it would be good to know why you can't come close. Yet. Understanding that many mixes are hitting a 2-buss compressor with zeal, and then are smashed down by a brick wall limiter, will provide you the ability to explain to your client (or yourself) why your record isn't as loud as the newest RHCP CD.

Well-seasoned pros have likely been through most of the trials and tribulations that you have, and then some. Even the most successful recordists, mixers, and producers have had to work in less than ideal situations, particularly in the beginning. We have all been there with a drummer that is inconsistent in his kik drums. We have all worked in reprehensible listening environments. We have all worked with crazy, whacked out artists, that want to do everything to avoid commerciallity. We have all worked with bands that can't play. It's called paying your dues, and it's an important part of the learning process.

There is no doubt that I, and other pros, face entirely different challenges from home recordists. However, we understand your challenges, and if there is a willingness to supply information, I don't see how that's a negative. Even if that information doesn't relate directly to you at this time, it's still knowledge.

Regardless, and contrary to some of the accusations here, I'm giving opinions based on how I think semi-pros and hobbyists should be thinking about things. Whether that be avoiding using your eyes to make determinations, taking a different approach to pricing, or even how you might approach bedside manner. Recording is a life-long learning process. I learn and relearn lessons on every session. Adapting, experimenting, and keeping an open mind to different techniques for different situations, will allow you to use information to your advantage.

Enjoy,

Mixerman

 

[AardvarkPSW]

The Habs are great this year unless they have to play my Sens.

It brings me great pain to have to agree with you. The Senators are the class of the league without doubt.











Nothing a well timed travel catastrophe couldn't cure though.


Hehehehe


Cheers,
SergeSavardVark

 

[mshilarious]

I didn't post the idea of having a parade where instead of getting a marching band, everyone could hold up signs with a chunk of waveform drawn on them simply because the idea is far too surreal.

Actually that's a great idea for performance art, but a mistaken analogy, because mix engineers are not the band. A better analogy would be for the drum major to hold up a waveform and point--but that's not a lot different than what they already do.

 

[grn]

this got way off topic

 

[SonicAlbert]

See, this is what concerns me about PSW types posting here. Sure it's great to get real pro advice, but I don't like being told I should hire a pro to do everything. This board has a nice DIY ethic. It so happens I designed my studio, I do my own drywall and electrical work, I mod or even make much of my gear (and all of my cabling ), I built my PC and my rack, I maintain and play all my instruments, and oh yeah I do my own mixes too.

I think there are times when a home or project studio owner is well advised to hire a professional mixer. Many composers here in LA (including myself) work as a team with a mix engineer. i.e., bring in a professional mix engineer to do the final mixes of their scores and album projects.

This is very common procedure. Many projects are done this way, with some combination of both home studio and commercial studio. The lines are really blurred these days, it's not always black and white anymore. I've done projects where tracks were recorded at a commercial studio, then mixes at a private studio. Or tracks were sequenced at a private studio, live overdubs done at a commercial studio, then mixed back at the smaller space. Or mixed at the bigger place.

Typically, whatever engineer is chosen for the project will travel to the various locations required. So you get engineers attached to the composers/artists rather than attached to the physical facility of a studio.

So certainly there are times to hire a pro and times not to hire a pro. The DIY thing is good, but if you have a project that will go on the air somewhere, then you might want to bring in a pro. Or if you know your tracks will be in competition with other similar tracks that will be mixed at a great studio by a pro engineer, that's another time to bring someone in.

It's also a great learning experience to watch someone with a lot of mixing skill and experience work on your gear. Even if you only consider it a mixing lesson it is well worth the money in my opinion.

But again, circumstances have to dictate whether it's worth it to bring in an outside engineer to a home studio. For me the reason is that the project will air either as a soundtrack or on the radio. If that is the case, I will pay the money and bring in my engineer.

 

[noisedude]

Using your eyes is a dangerous precedence when mixing. For several reasons.

............................


Using your eyes for checking on certain things are ok obviously.

Which is what Ed said in the original 'article'. Except he explained which certain things are ok, as to a hobbyist beginner they might not be obvious!

Can someone remind me what this argument's about again, because we seem to be running out of steam here people!

Nik