mixing on headphones

Its not really an age thing, since people of all ages try to do what you do. Saying what age you started something means nothing unless compared to your current age. You're not even 18 yet, so you've only been doing it for 5 years. That's not a whole lot of time. I also started drumming at age 12, but I'm 26 and I've been doing this for almost 15 years (and we're not counting all the piano training I had dating back to age 4). Quite a bit different. And I pale in comparison to many of the cats on these forums who've been doing their thing for decades.

Don't worry about age whatsoever.
 
This isn't about age at all. It is about what works.

Headphone mixing will give you a false sense of reality. Period. Monitors even in a crappy untreated room will give a better representation of a mix than any headphones. $1200 headphones or $20 ones. It is just reality...

Now, there will be more to learn about room treatment once you move to monitors.

That being said, it is not surprising that you get some shit for supposedly having mixes that need to be done for a 'label', when the basic knowledge of the fact that headphone mixing is never EVER recommended, is not something that you already know. That shows that you are not very experienced in mixing. No offense man, you may have some work in your genre but you should not find offense to a comment that is meant to help you. Especially in a public forum that has more than needed comments from amateurs who think they rule the world.

Take the advice given here to heart. Try not to boast yourself as someone of stature, when you are asking beginner questions. We all start from the beginning. Your post just came across as if you already had the answers.

Welcome again to the site SAM. Just take a bit back, and realize how many here are willing to help. I am. :)
 
jimmys69 said:
That shows that you are not very experienced in mixing. No offense man.....
Try not to boast yourself as someone of stature, when you are asking beginner questions.
:)
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That's basically it. It has nothing to do with anyone's age. It;s more a matter of trying to come off more important/experienced than you are. You're not going to bullshit most people here. While you may be doing something for a "labeL', the fact is, anyone can open a label, it doesn't mean shit. I've put out 6 CD's on my label, and I'm such a nobody that I haven't even heard of me. :eek:

So making the statement about having to do some "label" work might not be a lie, but it's obviously meant to make you seem alot more...everything....than you really are.

It's nothing personal, I don't know you and I think I might have watched about 7 seconds of one of your videos once.But a little humility from the hip-hop "community" would a fresh and welcome change, because you all spend so much time pounding your own chests that it has absolutely no effect any more, other than inducing major eye-rolling from everyone else.
 
God you people are dicks! I didn't get any kind of offensive posturing or pretension from the OP. What I do get from this thread is a precious few people actually trying to help and a bunch of weekend warriors and armchair quarterbacks spouting "conventional wisdom" as absolute fact and ironclad rules and taking the stance that they know better than some poor kid who wants to actually try to produce something even though he's not in ideal circumstances. It's nothing new, of course. This mentality that if you can't do it right then you shouldn't even bother. Seems to me to contradict the promise of a forum meant for home recordists. Perhaps there should be another forum for elitist dogma. Oh wait...

Mixing on headphones is not the worst thing you could ever do. Sitting around waiting and wishing that you had "the right gear" to work toward your vision is pretty close. In fact, mixing on headphones offers a number of advantages over conventional monitors:

1) Completely removes the effect of room acoustics from your decisions.

B) Lets you crank it up and mix LOUD at 02:00 when the baby and (more importantly) the mother are sleeping in the next room. Not that absurdly loud levels are great (whatever you're mixing on), but it sure is fun to really pound it every once in a while!

III) Keeps you in the sweet spot. You can turn your head, lean over to tweak something on the rack, or lay down on the couch and the mix stays the same.

d) Isolates you to some extent from ambient noise in the environment. This allows you to mix in the middle of the day when the baby and mother are awake. Well, until she decides you've had enough fun for the day...

Yes, there will be a wider stereo spread then you might get from stereo speakers. Yes, there will always be a deficiency in the low end. It's just like any other monitoring situation. To get decent results you must get familiar with the sound of the system and develop a feel for how things translate from there to other situations. You have to listen to a lot of music, and in fact actually get in and mix on them in order to figure it out. Exactly as you would with "real speakers".

Until just very recently I have done the bulk of my editing and mixing on headphones for all of the reasons listed above. I won't sign off on a mix until I've heard it through a few other playback systems, of course. That's true with "real speakers" too. My mixes have a lot of problems, but I would defy anybody to identify that as the one thing holding me back. But I have also had the same pair of AKGs for 18 years, and used them for thousands of hours worth of listening both recreational and critical. They've been my magic carpet quite a number of times, and I can dare say that I would not have any recordings at all to show for that time without them. Some folks might say that the world would be better off if I hadn't recorded all that crap...
 
ashcat_lt said:
God you people are dicks! I didn't get any kind of offensive posturing or pretension from the OP. What I do get from this thread is a precious few people actually trying to help and a bunch of weekend warriors and armchair quarterbacks spouting "conventional wisdom" as absolute fact and ironclad rules and taking the stance that they know better than some poor kid who wants to actually try to produce something even though he's not in ideal circumstances. It's nothing new, of course. This mentality that if you can't do it right then you shouldn't even bother. Seems to me to contradict the promise of a forum meant for home recordists. Perhaps there should be another forum for elitist dogma. Oh wait...
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Dood, did you actually read all the posts?

I am here to help, AND have a sense of humor. I wouldn't be a part of this forum or devote my free time to be a moderator if I didn't care.

You are the only one who placed a direct judgment. We only replied to what we felt from the conversation and gave personal advice based upon that. Granted, text can come across differently than intended, but you just told me I am a 'dick'. That is quite poignant.


You ok man?
 
SAMTheGreat said:
what pair of head phones do you guys recommend to mix on? ,

i will not have monitors for a while but label work needs to be done

wrapping up two ep's soon and want to be able to keep working
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This reads to me like somebody who knows full well that mixing on headphones is suboptimal, and is asking for help in making the best of his situation.

How do any of you get off claiming that he's bullshitting you? The argument I see is that if he was a "real" producer, he would already know that you "can't" mix on headphones. Even though he seems to have said himself...

Maybe, just maybe, he has come across in other threads as though he was some hot shit, but I don't see that here at all. We all know that every second person at the coffee shop is working on a couple of EPs for some label or other. I also happen to know for a fact that there are quite a number of producers whose work you've actually heard of who spend more time than they'd like mixing in headphones for one or more reasons.

Frankly, considering that so many people only listen on earbudz or Dr Dres it is almost irresponsible not to strongly consider how your mix will translate to that medium. Low's album Drums and Guns is unlistenable in headphones, which is too bad because it would be a great one for that "right between the sound machine" action I talked about earlier.

Then there are things that can be done on headphones which won't work anywhere else. I have occasionally considered producing separate releases of certain things - one for speakers where mono-compatibility is important, and another for headphones where all of the phase based locational tricks can be exploited to their fullest. If I had somebody paying me for any of this...
 
ashcat_lt said:
This reads to me like somebody who knows full well that mixing on headphones is suboptimal, and is asking for help in making the best of his situation.

How do any of you get off claiming that he's bullshitting you? The argument I see is that if he was a "real" producer, he would already know that you "can't" mix on headphones. Even though he seems to have said himself...

Maybe, just maybe, he has come across in other threads as though he was some hot shit, but I don't see that here at all. We all know that every second person at the coffee shop is working on a couple of EPs for some label or other. I also happen to know for a fact that there are quite a number of producers whose work you've actually heard of who spend more time than they'd like mixing in headphones for one or more reasons.

Frankly, considering that so many people only listen on earbudz or Dr Dres it is almost irresponsible not to strongly consider how your mix will translate to that medium. Low's album Drums and Guns is unlistenable in headphones, which is too bad because it would be a great one for that "right between the sound machine" action I talked about earlier.

Then there are things that can be done on headphones which won't work anywhere else. I have occasionally considered producing separate releases of certain things - one for speakers where mono-compatibility is important, and another for headphones where all of the phase based locational tricks can be exploited to their fullest. If I had somebody paying me for any of this...
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Bullshitting? It was just commentary on the OP's presentation. Part of the point of an open forum like this is to bring across personal opinion. Some of that may include and observation of how someone comes across. RAMI had a point. So did WhiteStrat. So did I.

Man, it seems you are taking this farther than even the OP read into it. Have you discussed this via PM with him? I have.

Whether or not the topic took a turn as to what was read into his post, the bottom line is we are all trying to help.

First off, I would never recommend that someone waste money on headphones they think will help with mixing, when it will always be better to spend that money on even the crappiest of monitors and then room treatment. This is not just my opinion. It is true. Why would anyone limit themselves to learning by something that does not give them the whole picture?

Sure, one could limit themselves to mixing for only those that listen in earbuds, but that is not the point. A good mix will sound good on earbuds, and every other playback situation (even the mono systems in clubs). You could duplicate tracks and time shift them with no phase issues in headphones. Is this a good starting point for a guy trying to learn? Not at all. You have the experience to try something as you suggested, that may not be the case with the OP.

Until anyone has the knowledge to make such decisions, the best advice IMO, is to direct them to learning how to mix. This is not best done by turning a cheek and let them do what they think is best. We learn from the mistakes of others. This site is great because of the people who are willing to share what they have learned through making their own mistakes.

I sure as hell will not tell someone 'yeah mix on headphones, that will help you to learn'. Not sure why you are defending the OP, when he himself doesn't seem to have an issue...


Can we move on now please?
 
Why not both? I have a shitty mixing room at home and in my dorm I don't even have monitors. The more sound systems the better really. Oh and HD280's
 
jimmys69 said:
Bullshitting? It was just commentary on the OP's presentation. Part of the point of an open forum like this is to bring across personal opinion. Some of that may include and observation of how someone comes across. RAMI had a point. So did WhiteStrat. So did I.

Man, it seems you are taking this farther than even the OP read into it. Have you discussed this via PM with him? I have.

Whether or not the topic took a turn as to what was read into his post, the bottom line is we are all trying to help.

First off, I would never recommend that someone waste money on headphones they think will help with mixing, when it will always be better to spend that money on even the crappiest of monitors and then room treatment. This is not just my opinion. It is true. Why would anyone limit themselves to learning by something that does not give them the whole picture?

Sure, one could limit themselves to mixing for only those that listen in earbuds, but that is not the point. A good mix will sound good on earbuds, and every other playback situation (even the mono systems in clubs). You could duplicate tracks and time shift them with no phase issues in headphones. Is this a good starting point for a guy trying to learn? Not at all. You have the experience to try something as you suggested, that may not be the case with the OP.

Until anyone has the knowledge to make such decisions, the best advice IMO, is to direct them to learning how to mix. This is not best done by turning a cheek and let them do what they think is best. We learn from the mistakes of others. This site is great because of the people who are willing to share what they have learned through making their own mistakes.

I sure as hell will not tell someone 'yeah mix on headphones, that will help you to learn'. Not sure why you are defending the OP, when he himself doesn't seem to have an issue...


Can we move on now please?
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Jimmy, don't even bother. Ashcat's the only one here that either can't read or has a comprehension problem. At least once a month, he comes into a thread and gets it 100% wrong and then admits he didn't really read most of the thread. Last time, he thought me and Greg were arguing and we weren't even close to disagreeing. He should keep his nose out of shit because he's always putting his foot in his mouth. Never fails, every single time. And he's calling other people names???? That's peculiar. :eek:

Now, if you'll excuse me, I have some label work waiting. I can't see how that would sound pretentious, though. I'm a producer. :rolleyes:
 
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Sam ended up being the most mature dude in this thread after all. :D

Maybe SAM really is Great!
 
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if you are serious about mixing, do not mix on headphones.

yes, check the mix on headphones.
but do not mix on headphones.


study some pros for a while, see how they do it.
 
Unfortunately, there's always that one person that says something like "I've been doing so and so for years and it works for me". Sure it does. Define "works for me". I guess we'll just have to take their word for it.

"I mix with headphones and I have an un-treated, cement, cube-shaped room, but it works for me". Yeah, if you say so. :D
 
Here is a question, now pay attention to the workflow. I have the headphones, I have the monitors and the room is decent (not fully treated, working on it). I tend to like to start my mix in the headphones, do my first cut panning and sound levels, then come back to the monitors for the final tweaking and EQing. Seems I get a better feel for the mix with the headphones at the detail level than with the monitors. Anybody else do something similar?
 
No doubt headphones are great for a lot of things, edits, precision listening, small details, etc. But for over all tonal and spatial balance, you need monitors. I think, DM60, your work flow is fine. Use headphones to put the pieces together and the monitors to make them sound good.

I personally only use headphones, anymore, to listen to reverb tails and edit crossfades. Oh, and tracking, of course.

Now for Sam, maybe he doesn't need monitors because he's only laying vox over top of an already-produced beat. There's not much mixing involved. HPF the vox, add some delay and squash the hell out of it to match the massively squashed beat he is using.

If he's going to be mastering his own work, though... then he'll definitely need monitors. And a good room. But he didn't ask about that.
 
Chili said:
Now for Sam, maybe he doesn't need monitors because he's only laying vox over top of an already-produced beat. There's not much mixing involved. HPF the vox, add some delay and squash the hell out of it to match the massively squashed beat he is using.

If he's going to be mastering his own work, though... then he'll definitely need monitors. And a good room. But he didn't ask about that.
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I will add here that there is possibility of much more going on than just a vocal track on a backing track.

I just finished a 14 track 'mixtape' (that is what they call it) for some quite talented Hip Hop/Rap guys. Yes they used backing tracks, but there was much more to it than that. We added a bunch of sound effects and samples. Some tunes had 8 vocal tracks. Main vocal for two guys, second track for each. The 'hook' or chorus may have 3 or more tracks (tuned), then guest singers in parts. These can be a bit tough to place well against backing tracks that are polished/mastered to different degrees. I don't see any way I could have made the vocals sit well with headphones alone.

Also, I am not sure how anyone can endure headphones on for the amount of time it takes to mix a tune. I start getting twitchy after an hour of tracking with cans. lol. Maybe that is just me, but it obviously causes fatigue.

I also dealt with the end of chain compression for each to a point, then brought the project to a mastering engineer to put the final touches on the CD. Even more manipulation was done there, that would never be possible to judge with headphones.

I would not ever say that someone 'can't' mix on headphones. But damn sure as hell it will not be easy. Likely not possible without cross checking on other systems (with speakers) and wasting a bunch of time second guessing and fixing.

I recommended via PM that the OP look into investing in monitors (even if cheap for now), as opposed to getting expensive headphones. Room treatment being the next best investment.

He was already looking into studio monitors... Seems Sam has a better head on his shoulders than we gave him credit for. Sam comes across as someone who is listening. May have initially judged him wrong.

I officially apologize if I came off as condescending for my 'Label' joke. It was just a joke. Hell, I laugh every time these guys I'm working with call me 'producah'! :)
 
I had a bunch of label work over the past few days...

...but I finally got the paper off the mayonnaise jars so I'm ready to make my Moroccan salted lemons now.
 
DM60 said:
Here is a question, now pay attention to the workflow. I have the headphones, I have the monitors and the room is decent (not fully treated, working on it). I tend to like to start my mix in the headphones, do my first cut panning and sound levels, then come back to the monitors for the final tweaking and EQing. Seems I get a better feel for the mix with the headphones at the detail level than with the monitors. Anybody else do something similar?
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I do it the same way. Burn a CD and listen on other systems, too, during the tweaking process.
 
mjbphotos said:
I do it the same way. Burn a CD and listen on other systems, too, during the tweaking process.
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Yes, cut across different systems. But I will be honest, if it doesn't sound good in my car, (most people's best listening and most focused environment), I will optimize towards it.
 
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