Mixing On A Mackie 8-Buss

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DDev

DDev

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Last night I was working on a mix that I've had some problems with getting the drums to lay in right, and I decided to double up the drums on both a group buss and on the stereo/master buss. I had to crank the overall volume level up a bit higher than I normally do to get the mix right but it finally got there. So, I then run it into my PC 2-track program to record the mix (out of the control room output of the board). Lo and behold I get a waveform that looks like it has gone through a hard limiter (and sounded like crap to boot).

Has anyone else ever seen this with a Mackie 8-buss?

I dropped the level of the master fader by about half and got my dynamics back in the waveform, but this got me to wondering about the stereo buss in the mixer.

Anyway, any experienced comments would be welcome.

Thanks,
Darryl.....
 
Well -- the summing busses aren't exactly full of headroom, so it can be easy to send them off the deep end.

The other thing is how hot your tracks are.

If you're normalizing them or increasing the level via editing on the PC, then send those (now much hotter) tracks back to the Mackie, you're going to have some seriously hot levels back at the returns, making maintaining headroom that much more difficult.

Don't forget - if you use something to "up" tracks levels towards 0dBFS, that's about 14 dB hotter than 0VU on the Mackie. Very easy to clip the busses under those conditions!
 
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Thanks, Bruce. I was pushing the overall buss levels pretty hot, but what surprised me was the limiting. I guess I just assumed that if you hit the summing buss too hard it would just distort but you would still get transient peaks.

FWIW, I don't run the PC output back into the mixer while I'm recording from the mixer to avoid what I think you were suggesting. I usually do the normalizing post-mix and try to avoid any limiting to avoid any audible distortion (at least audible to me; I know that any change to the waveform introduces something to the overall sound).

Darryl.....
 
i try to avoid bussing on mackies. If you can live without bussing to the 8 buss, you'll save a little bit of grit in the mix.
 
Agreed -- I use the busses for subgroups of heavily compressed rhythm beds or other "severe" effects - stuff that won't get marred by a little 'grit'.... but otherwise - yeah - best avoid it if you can help it!
 
Hmmmmm............ Not using the sub-groups........

I've got to think about that a bit. I guess I'm so used to using the groups to simplify live mixing, that I've carried that habit over to my studio mixing. I typically separate the vocals onto subgroups 1 and 2 (L & R), drums, guitars, and bass on 3 and 4, orchestra onto 5 and 6, and keys on 7 and 8. I put my effects on channels 29-32 of the mixer and assign them to the stereo buss, and also apply any room/ambient mics to the stereo buss (note that so far all I record are live church worship services; usually 22-24 tracks).

Any insight into how you would setup your board/routing would be very educational.

Thanks,
Darryl.....
 
also when your ready to sum, make sure your main mix volume on the mackie doesn't go above zero(on the mackieboard)...the mackie folds under pressure...fletch says a big reason is cuz of the underpowered psu..i wonder if you got a good psu for it how much of a difference it would make....
 
I probably won't get back to the board until next week since I've got to leave Thursday to take my daughter to visit a college for the weekend.

But, in thinking about this and all your comments, I still need to re-think my mixing process, I guess. I've never, ever gotten the master fader anywhere near 0 (usually I'm sitting at -15 to -20 for a comfortable volume in my room), but I almost always run the group faders near 0. This last mix I did I intentionally pushed the master fader up to about -10 (and I'd wager I was running 120 dB in my room; it was almost painful and I doubt I'll ever go that loud again).

Anyway, back to basics with a fresh set of ears and a new perspective.

Darryl.....
 
i meant the monitoring levels...not the actual volume sliders...
 
Darryl... sounds like we need to talk about optimum signal levels and faders!

Gain staging applies within a conole too.... for the most part, you want ALL your faders to be around the zero mark.

If you've got the master level down at -20 dB -- you've likely got the channel faders pushed too high!
 
I always try to run all my channel and sub-group faders around 0. They vary slightly based on the mix, but the way I was taught to setup a mix was to adjust your channel faders to 0, then bring up the channel trim settings to get an adequate signal. I usually start with a signal that gives me about half scale on my meter bridge for each channel to allow for some ups and downs in the course of the song. I will tweak these as necessary to try to keep the faders as close to 0 as possible once I've gotten to a balance in the mix I like (just makes it easier to know where things are changing). I never let any individual channel ever peak on the meter bridge.

With this configuration, then, and my monitoring setup in my tiny room, I rarely turn the master fader up past what I mentioned earlier. It is just too loud. I am feeding my power amp (Dynaco 120 amp into Event 20/20 monitors) from the 1/4" master outputs (unbalanced since my amp doesn't have balanced inputs), and my mixdown PC is fed from the control room outputs (unbalanced) with the control room volume knob set at about 40%, I think (it is a bit below half at least). My amp doesn't have any volume control so all my control is from the stereo master (and everything that feeds it).

Normally when I setup a mix I wind up bringing a few things down from 0 (I try not to push above 0 on anything since I've heard about the summing issues before). I always try to use the principle that things sound better if you decrease overall rather than increase (ie. levels, eq adjustments, etc.).

This is the first time in the last several months of using this setup that I've had a problem like this (usually its just too much of this or not enough of that in the mix but no fidelity issues). And that's what got me to thinking that I needed another opinion on how I'm doing this.

Thanks for all your input and if anything sticks out in what I described that needs to be changed PLEASE let me know. I am always trying to figure out how to improve my skills.

Now, if I don't answer anything for the next few days, I will be getting back to this after I return from my daughter's college trip.

Thanks,
Darryl.....
 
Oh - I see... you're using the master level as your monitor level.... not a good idea...

Why aren't you using the control room or studio monitor outs? This way, you aren't using the master outputs that are really designed to be fed into your 2-track unit....
 
Blue Bear has got it man. I use a 32/8 very often for both live stuff and recording. Monitoring from the control or studio outs lets you keep comfortable and have all the levels staged well.

Cheers!
Adam
 
Thought I'd check this thread one last time before my trip.

"I see...I see" said the blind man. Thanks Bruce.

I have the use of this 32x8 mixer for an indefinite period of time since I took the time and effort to fix it when our church moved (this used to be our FOH console; now we have a Midas Legend). I had to do the ribbon cable replacement on it, and my reward was a slot in the studio until the church decides if they want to use it for anything else.

Anyway, the reason for that explanation is so that I could say that I have never seen the manual for the mixer (I know I can download it but never have), so I just hooked it up in a way that seemed logical to me. I never thought about doing it the way you suggested. I am using the control room output to feed the PC which is my 2-track unit, and the studio output is currently free but intended to feed my "live room" (ie. living room stereo) for an alternate way to listen to my mixes. I guess I could swap things around and try it the way you suggest.

Thanks,
Darryl.....
 
Just a friendly suggestion.

First I'd like to say I don't know a thing about the Mackie board but have more of a thought then a suggestion. Can it be as simple as the two track unit recording volume being to loud? Like I said I don't really know but I didn't see anyone mention that.

Just a thought.
sonicpaint
 
DDev said:
I probably won't get back to the board until next week since I've got to leave Thursday to take my daughter to visit a college for the weekend.
Darryl.....

Spoken by a true homerecordist......praise praise :D
 
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