Mixing, Monitors, Training ears?

[joswil44]

Hey everyone.

I am looking for some advice on Mixing.

I have found through trial and error that obviously what sounds good in the monitors doesnt always sound so great on CD through a car or boombox.

I fear that monitors are too capable of producing the audio sound field that would otherwise distort or fart out in a normal stereo.

I realize that the correct room sound treatment can also point out my flaws.

I use Mackie HR824's.

I am learning to mix flat.

But I am also scared to mix too flat or even be lacking in areas of too much reduction.

My initial instincts when I began recording was to make a monster sound and everything was loud and powerful.

Obviously it came out like the biggest piece of crap in the end.

I would import an audio track from a professional band and it would be very flat and simple.

Mine would sound huge and punchy.

But in the end that professional sounds awesome, and mine has huge flaws.

I am getting better mixes now from the start through experience.

Since I record bands and get paid to do it, I want to be able to get great mixes quickly.

At this point I have to burn a CD, listen to it, go back and fix the frequency levels or cut/boost, burn another CD, go back etc.....

I can waste 10 CD's before getting the final mix.

I feel like I need to buy a small $100 stereo at Wal-Mart and hook it up next to my Monitors through RCA jacks just to test my mix on normal speakers to get a more accurate representation of where I stand before burning to disc.

I dont know if my ears just arent fully trained yet, or if I need another set of monitors to work with or what?

Any advice?

 

[bennychico11]

I realize that the correct room sound treatment can also point out my flaws.

BINGO! This is one of the most important factors when talking about mixes not translating properly to different speakers.
Let me guess, your mixes in the car or on another system sound very bass heavy?

I am learning to mix flat.

what do you mean by mixing flat? you're not using a spectrum analyzer and trying to make it flat are you?

I feel like I need to buy a small $100 stereo at Wal-Mart and hook it up next to my Monitors through RCA jacks just to test my mix on normal speakers to get a more accurate representation of where I stand before burning to disc.

Do it. Many engineers do this for this very reason.

However, it sounds like it's not just a speaker issue. Generally speaking, speakers don't usually drastically change your mix so that you're cringing when playing back...especially when using studio monitors. I find if anything, the crappier the speaker, the more flaws are covered up. It's the studio monitors that should point out the trouble spots. BUT...a room's acoustics can falsely reproduce these flaws, forcing you to correct places that shouldn't be corrected and to miss the real problems of the mix.

 

[rgraves]

Yeah, I've often wondered about this too...I mean, I have some very entry level monitors, "Event TR5's" and they sound fine but obviously when I go test it out in the car or another stereo it sounds different.

But my question is, isn't it just as easy to figure out what your monitors are coloring through practice as getting some really nice pair of monitors? I mean, I remember from a audio engineer I used to know he said the best monitors that a lot of pro studios use are around $10,000, but at what point between my cheap ones and more expensive ones and $10,000 ones does it really make your mixes better? It would seem you could get the same results either way...

Help me out here

 

[chazba]

I've read so much lately about high end monitors that I'm starting to develop an inferiority complex over my shabby JBL G200's. Something I noticed that deserves mention...On those days when I'm eating myself alive bacause I'm forced by circumstance to mix on a system of such obvious inferiority, the system sounds like shit. On the other hand, if I stay away from the monitor threads for a few days, it's amazing how clean and dimensional my wonderful JBL's can get. So I'm thinkin'....Maybe there's more attitude involved in this than I realized.After all, the final stage of the signal chain is the wetware processing .

Whatcha think....????


chazba

 

[joswil44]

Yes my mixes do come out very bass heavy once played on a stereo.

Thats my number one problem.

And its difficult because I dont want to rob the kick drum or bass guitar or even guitars of their low end power simply because I cant locate the right area that the low end should reside.

I usually end up cutting the low frequency until it seems to clear up or not be boomy on subwoofers.

When I say mixing flat I just mean I try not to add the punchyness to it that I would expect to feel when I listen to it through a stereo.

I dont use a spectrum analyizer but often wonder if I should be. My Nuendo software has one.

What would be recommended for sound treatment to hear what the low end it actually doing through my monitors?

Thanks!

 

[studiomaster]

What would be recommended for sound treatment to hear what the low end it actually doing through my monitors?

Thanks!

Corner bass traps...also broadband absorbers...you should really check out Ethan Winer's article on this. He's the guru with these stuff...

 

[bennychico11]

studiomaster's basically got it. The site he is talking about that you should read over is http://www.ethanwiner.com/acoustics.html
Great read, but lengthy. So set aside some time to read it.

Bass traps will do just that, absorb the low frequencies that tend to reside in the corners of your room. I'm sure you're thinking "but aren't I adding too much bass to my mixes because I can't hear enough in my studio? Why would I want to remove MORE bass from the room?"
Although a very valid question, adding bass traps actually increase lower frequencies at certain spots in the room. More likely than not, the lower frequencies are canceling where you are sitting at, making you think you need more lower end in the mix. If you suck up the excess bass in other parts of the room, when the frequencies bounce back to you at the mix position they won't cancel as much (or at all)...in result letting you hear more how your mix is really sounding.
Try standing in the corners of your room while you play back your mix...as you walk from the mix position to the corner notice how your low end increases dramatically. THAT'S the spot where the bass traps are needed.

As far as the spectrum analyzer...don't use it. Ignore it except for when trying to trouble shoot certain problems. And your low frequency issue is not one of those problems.

 

[studiomaster]

Also, if you build your own bass traps, you will notice how much of an improvement the low frequency becomes in the room with a little bit of physical work and a little bit of cash to spend. But that improvement is dependant upon you since material and position is a great concern.

 

[SouthSIDE Glen]

But my question is, isn't it just as easy to figure out what your monitors are coloring through practice as getting some really nice pair of monitors?

Yes and no . There is always an amount of translation (the art of knowing that if it sounds like A in the studio that it'll sound like B in the living room and that if it sounds like C in the studio it'll sound like A in the living room) that has to be done. Even with the best monitor arrays, the engineer needs to do some transalation because those arrays are still a different color than what most people will find in their living room.

Translation is easy (sometimes) when it's a matter of, "OK, I know that when I have good bass at my desk that it comes out too bass-rich everywhere else." You can mix so that it sounds bass-deficient in the studio so thatit comes out OK on CD. That's just one example.

If, however, the sub-bass response or the crisp/airy high end on your CDs is sounding off and your monitros just can't reporduce those problem frequencies, then you can't translate properly because you have no source from which to translate.

And yes, room treatment in the form of bass traps and a few strategically-placed diffusers and maybe even an absorber or two will go a long way towards solving such problems and making translation as easy as pig latin. As far as bang-for-the-buck, unless your monitors are really awful, one can often find more signifigant improvement in their mixes by keeping their old monitors and treating their rrom, than they can upgrading their monitors and sticking them in the same old dirty room.

G.

 

[joswil44]

Thanks for all of the great information.

Seems like I always knew that sound treatment was important but I guess I needed to experience why for myself in order to understand it.

And your right. My first insticts would be why trap bass when I cant hear it correctly to begin with?

But it all makes sense to me now.

Looks like I need to make an Auralex investment.

 

[Ethan Winer]

> why trap bass when I cant hear it correctly to begin with? <

You miss the point of how bass traps work. Follow the link Benny posted for my Acoustics FAQ (thanks Benny). There's a lot of additional information on my company's site, linked under my name below.

--Ethan

 

[bennychico11]

Looks like I need to make an Auralex investment.

Look even simpler. If you are handy at building things (or can read directions) you can build your own. The most common bass trap is a simple 2'x4', 703 rigid fiberglass panel. Very similar to the insulation in your walls and very inexpensive when compared to something like Auralex. Not to mention Auralex tends to remove some of the mass of their bass traps by carving out the material to make it a diffusor too. But lower frequencies are best absorbed in larger mass products.
Read the link I gave you and do a search in the Studio Building section of this site. Plenty of plans on how to build bass traps.
Another good site for info (plans at the bottom) http://www.bobgolds.com/AbsorptionCoefficients.htm

Don't be turned off on the idea just because it takes a little elbow grease to get what you need.


----and that makes post number 3,000 for me. Do I spend too much time here?

 

[joswil44]

I am always interested in saving money with do it yourself.

Unless I am just completely clueless as to what parts to gather.

I will read up on it though.

I built a vocal booth so I guess I can try some panels to

 

[haarisa]

Quote:
I realize that the correct room sound treatment can also point out my flaws.

BINGO! This is one of the most important factors when talking about mixes not translating properly to different speakers.
Let me guess, your mixes in the car or on another system sound very bass heavy?

I am having the opposite problem. My mixes sound bass lacking in a system without subwoofers, but too much bass in a system with subwoofers to the point that you cannot hear the beat. And I got Event ASP 8s.
Any suggestions?

 

[studiomaster]

I am having the opposite problem. My mixes sound bass lacking in a system without subwoofers, but too much bass in a system with subwoofers to the point that you cannot hear the beat. And I got Event ASP 8s.
Any suggestions?

Are your monitors sitting in the corners of the room?

 

[superspit]

this is a great thread guy's....keep it up!! Most excellent questions too!

 

[bennychico11]

I am having the opposite problem. My mixes sound bass lacking in a system without subwoofers, but too much bass in a system with subwoofers to the point that you cannot hear the beat. And I got Event ASP 8s.
Any suggestions?

You could have the exact same problem too...just a little variation.
When low frequencies bounce around the room they can subtract or add from one another as they move. joswil44 appears to be having the low frequencies starting to cancel at his mix position. Causing him to add more than is necessary when mixing.
Your low frequencies could be bouncing around the walls and adding at the spot you mix at...thinking you have too much bass in your mix and causing you to subtract more than is needed.

Basically if you're mixing in any untreated room....treat it. All room need treatment, especially if you're just mixing in a square/rectangle room.