Midimonkey Design Take I

  • Thread starter Thread starter frederic
  • Start date Start date
John Sayers said:
Hey frederic don't get me wrong - I'm not meaning to be critical - what you are doing is the way to go - keep trying different layouts and pick out the parts that work - I do it all the time. Design s grow - they are like a plant that starts from a seed and eventually develops into a fully grown tree.

keep at it - you'll get it eventually :):)

cheers
John

Oh, no worries mate, your comments, criticism are most welcome, as is anyone elses. I didn't take it the wrong way, no worries at all!
 
John Sayers said:
BTW - try reversing your control room design shape (both control rooms) - the walls should splay away from the speakers. as you've drawn them they are splaying inwards as opposed to outwards.

cheers
john

I'm going to soffit them per your and others suggestion.

Splay them away from each other, meaning rotate the control rooms approximately 180 degrees so the monitor backs are towards each other, or change the wall behind the monitors so instead of being shaped like a ball, the monitor ends are a concave?
 
Title 24 requirments

Hi frederic, something just occurred to me. I know you are a skilled designer. I can see that. And I am sure that your applying for permits. You mentioned in a previous post,
that you had a conversation with a local BID rep(I think). I am REAL curious, as to the final legal documents you end up having to provide them. This is why.
In the county I live in(Sacramento Co., California) ANY new, alteration or modification
of a building zoned Commercial MUST meet title 24 requirements. For those of you who do not know what Title 24 is in regards to, it is a Federal building code, that states, countys, and incorperated areas of the USA can adopt as a preclude to thier own codes. And right off the bat, I want to state that I am no expert, architect, engineer or any kind of licenced practitioner of these fields, so please take what I say from that perspective. I'm speaking purely from experience in regards to this. So. Title 24 are a set of codes designed to keep certain design and construction in COMPIANCE with the law, as it relates to the Handicapped. Now please, no flames yet:D This is purely out of my desire to learn. Not preach. Having had my own professional relationship with a company who routinely had to comply with these codes, throughout the western united states, I am curious as to your local compliance requirements. Here, these codes require you to submit a set of construction documents that display your intent as to complying with Title 24. Now I know this HR.com, but as you ARE designing for commercial occupation, then that really hightend my desire to see firsthand how a studio that must meet these requirements is designed to do so. You mentioned earlier that your first criteria that you were seeking to satisfy was "people flow". Here, that is EXACTLY what Title 24 pertains to. And that is, to design commercial building egress and facilitys, so not to impede access to these areas of commercial occupation to the handicapped. Now, I know this may seem odd to some of you, and of no interest at all
as you are only interested in what you can do to your home studio. However, in this county, you MUST address these issues, or you will face wasting your time and money if you are in a commercial space. Usually, you won't get so far as construction, as any
space in this county is under surveilence by BID officials, who pretty much know any signs of unpermitted occupation and or construction. And who, if they catch you, can and will lock your space up under Sherrif suppervision if you are foolish enough to defy thier authority to do so, by continuing to occupy and or construct, rent out, run a business out of or any other use of a building that is open to the public, with out complying with the law.
Excuse this book. How else can I ask these questions? My interest in this is solely out of professional curiosity. I AM a designer. Maybe not pro studio, but interior compliant design is one the areas of design I am in constant contact with, but not licenced to practice, as a business, as it is governed by the state professions act. But in regards to my position as a professional designer, I still have to personally design, using Title 24 as one of the criteria for successful commercial interior design. Commercial Studios in this county must comply. And thats not all. Every building has an occupancy load. And this load determines how you interpret Title 24. Frederic, do you have to comply with Title 24 for your commercial studio? I have yet to see anything published in regards to how professioanl studio designers meet this challange. Most people I have talked to are taken aback with this. Huh! Whats he talking about. Handicapped. There are no handicapped people seeking a job in a studio! This is for wanabe and actual rock stars! How dare him. Handicapped. What would they do? That sort of thing. Sometimes I get the feeling that this field has somehow isolated itself from that, being associated with "art" and "stardom" and such, although I am a musician also, so please don't take offence to that. This is out of pure interest. Any comments other than buzz off will be appreciated too. Thanks for your patience and a grain of salt frederic. No offence intended. Only interest.
fitz:)
 
Re: Title 24 requirments

occupation to the handicapped. Now, I know this may seem odd to some of you, and of no interest at all as you are only interested in what you can do to your home studio.

Actually, I am extremely interested in this code for many reasons.

Regarding handicap laws, the facility won't require more than one designated handicapped parking spot. This is because it has first floor access and the second floor (the slab above the office space) is undeveloped. If I change that, then I will need to shell out a lot of money for an elevator, or ensure that all handicapped employees work on the first floor in equivilent facilites as whats available upstairs. Thats about as much of the law as I know.

Regarding people flow, well, thats extremely important to me. I'm a big fan of ergonomics in all senses of the word, and intend not to skimp in that regard in designing the facility.

I'm trying to achieve a really good flow for humans of any designation (employees or clients), but also keep access to the two control rooms controlled.

Several things I deem important:

1. People wandering in cannot get past the reception area unless I allow them to. Since I won't have a receptionist/office manager for a loooooooooong time, the double doors between the reception area and the rest of the facility will be electronically locked to the outside. The inside will of course have fire escape pushbars for safety.

2. I have two control rooms, and I absolutely do not want clients in there unless I decide to. If they pay to, fabulous, they're in. But I am very comfortable with the idea of having "them" on that side of the double glass, and "us" on this side of the same glass. Too many people in there will make it hot, crowded, and its certainly a distraction.

3. Flow. The facility needs to be easy to navigate for customers. I don't mind if I or any guest engineers have to navigate an extra door or two, but the flow of the facility must be such that customers don't get lost, don't lose their stuff in some unknown room, that sorta thing.

construct, rent out, run a business out of or any other use of a building that is open to the public, with out complying with the law.

While I don't know that particular law well at all, there are two ways to comply. Following it, and making donations :) I will be following it.

Actually, I have an architect that owes me a huge favor, so he and I have already discussed what his repayment will be. I give him my visio diagrams on paper with measurements, and he'll convert them to geographically legal diagrams complete with electrical, plumbing and whatever else the planning board needs to issue me my $650 in permits for all the different kinds of work.

Before I shelled out the cash for the building, I did go before the planning board in that town, and sought approval conceptionally for the type of business I wanted to run. Aside from a slew of positive comments I received, I could see on their faces they were clearly not opposed, at all. I think this is because there has been a rash of dunkin donut type places going up every few blocks in that particular town, as well as other types of businesses in the area that my building is in that could have taken it over - mostly industrial hellholes. So I presented it ("Spun" if you have a sales background) that my company/business would be improving the neighborhood by bringing in a new class of business.

Perception is reality - dont ever forget it :)

Excuse this book. How else can I ask these questions? My interest in this is solely out of professional curiosity.

You (and everyone else) are welcomed to ask, say, comment, refute, disagree, help, improve or laugh at anything I say, draw, post or otherwise share. If I wasn't interested in this dialog I wouldn't be a member of this BBS. I find this enlightening and enjoyable. Even if I don't take certain advice, I know I'm stubborn (and I write harshly too!) but its all mean as good.

professional designer, I still have to personally design, using Title 24 as one of the criteria for successful commercial interior design. Commercial Studios in this county must comply.

Do you know of a web link or where I can obtain a pdf of this title 24? While I probably have it covered, I have this need to fully understand my surroundings to the nth degree. If you have it handy, if not, I'll ask my owes-me-a-favor architect to provide it.

And thats not all. Every building has an occupancy load. And this load determines how you interpret Title 24. Frederic, do you have to comply with Title 24 for your commercial studio? I have yet to see anything published in regards to how

Here is what I know, and I must say its not complete information.

Once I present my design for my side of the facility the planning board will nitpick it until they are satisfied I've met all the codes. They have a consulting architect that I have to pay a fee to for approval of my design. Once the design is finalized and approved, I'm assigned an occupancy specification for the entire facility, as well as specific areas. For example, I might have a 100 person occupancy, but there may be a limit in the console room to four, because it only has one exit and is behind three sets of doors. Made up example but you get the idea I'm sure. The only signs/documents I have to display in the entrance or some place obvious is the business license, the fire inspection, and the occupancy certificate. I will also display police boosters :)

Handicapped. There are no handicapped people seeking a job in a studio! This is for wanabe and actual rock stars!

Statistically, I would agree with you, however like you said, I'm required by law to make my facility handicapped accessable and to be honest, I really have no issue doing so. For this facility, I can comply with that law by painting and signing a single parking spot, and putting a handrail in the bathrooms. Very easy to comply with, and certainly not something I would ever fight.

and such, although I am a musician also, so please don't take offence to that.

No offense taken. None at all :)

Anyway, to my diagram, I'm still suffering with flow. And whether I should move the office/conference room upstairs onto the 2nd floor partial slab. Ugh.

I think I'm going to take a little break for a while :)
 
Sometimes you're just lucky...

As junk removal started this weekend, I got a phone call at about 7am. The "junk crew", who was hired to collect the 3 stories of racks and junk noticed one section of one rack had some seemingly expensive-looking things on it.

I took a quick shower and headed over, and found two Porsche 944 turbo engines complete, a small CNC machine, and some fancy-smanchy tools.

I called up the guy who is renting the other side for a machine shop, read off the models/makes of the machines as well as the porsche engines, and got a cool $9000 for it all. So the junk crew is going to forklift that stuff to his side :)

I just lowered my construction costs by 9 grand. Today is a good day :)

I'm actually suprised the junk removal people didn't take it, actually. They were pretty cool to do what they did. Their services were acquired on a handshake, so they could have without any regard for me at all.

Underneath one of the racks they also discovered two capped sewer pipes and three capped water pipes, seemingly setup for a toilet and a sink, so I can shuffle anything around, I have a second bathroom locacation without having to cut into the slab. Assuming I like where it is. With my luck, its dead center of the room :)

There's also sewer and water pipes on the second floor slab as is the furnace, hot water heater and such. I never went up on the slab because there is no ladder or stairs. The junk crew brought a ladder so I got to poke around up there. There is an old golf cart up there and a lot of other really weird, but probably not to useful stuff!

Oh well.
 
What do you mean "with your luck?" Sounds like you struck it rich:D A CNC huh? A machinist CNC? How cool frederic. And all that other junk? Golf Cart? Holy cow. Thats gotta be worth something. Maybe you'll get enough out of this stuff to build your whole studio;) Say, about the Title 24 stuff, out here, there is far more to it than just a parking spot, bathroom handrails and signs. But I know your looking into it. Let me know. Anyway, I'm happy for your stroke of good luck. Keep us posted on your progress and anymore Gold Mines:eek:
fitz:)
 
What I mean is this frederic :)

cheers
John
 

Attachments

  • plan1..webp
    plan1..webp
    32.7 KB · Views: 107
Hi frederic, I know your takin a break from this. So enjoy. I was wondering about your console note. (4)O2r's. Is that what you've decided to use? Can you cascade 4 of these or are you doing something different? Your very creative at this stuff, I mean when I saw you use 6 TM-D000's, that astounded me:eek:
fitz
 
RICK FITZPATRICK said:
What do you mean "with your luck?" Sounds like you struck it rich:D A CNC huh? A machinist CNC? How cool frederic. And all that other junk? Golf Cart? Holy cow. Thats gotta be worth something. Maybe you'll get enough out of this stuff to build your whole studio;) Say, about the Title 24 stuff, out here, there is far more to it than just a parking spot, bathroom handrails and signs. But I know your looking into it. Let me know. Anyway, I'm happy for your stroke of good luck. Keep us posted on your progress and anymore Gold Mines:eek:
fitz:)

Its a smaller machine, certainly not something large enough to mill blocks and stuff, but probably just large enough to do some portwork in smaller heads, say V6 heads. Its really not a big machine. The whole place was full of junk. As of this writing its only 1/2 full of junk. Those guys cleaning it out work real fast. As they remove all that stuff they also are dismantling the storage racks and taking it with them, which is good too. I don't need 30' high rusted, bent storage racks :)

I'll keep ya posted, no worries :) I cannot even begin to share the level of excitment. My wife is already sick of hearing about it!
 
John Sayers said:
What I mean is this frederic :)

cheers
John

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah!

Now I got it. Thanks! I'm going to turn it around though, so the engineer is facing the live room, simply because I wanted glass there so everyone could see each other, but I got it now! Thanks!
 
RICK FITZPATRICK said:
Hi frederic, I know your takin a break from this. So enjoy. I was wondering about your console note. (4)O2r's. Is that what you've decided to use? Can you cascade 4 of these or are you doing something different? Your very creative at this stuff, I mean when I saw you use 6 TM-D000's, that astounded me:eek:
fitz

I'm not fully decided... I've burned myself by cascading little mixers in the past. At home I do have six TMD1000's cascaded together, but they are linked with s/pdif so basically its a 2-buss mixer across the whole thing. For midi composing I find stereo just fine, but for any live work, 8 busses is much more flexible and certainly necessary for surround-anything.

The 02Rv2 can be cascaded "as many as you like" however each additional mixer adds a little processing delay to the audio data, so generally 4 is the decided limit because you don't have to add delay to external devices to sync up the audio.

But no, I'm not completely decided on the consoles. I will be using Tascam MX2424's as recorders. To support two MX's (48 channels) I'd need three 02R's in order to have the analog inputs on one "layer" and the tape returns all together on the second "layer". So I prolly don't need four 02R's.

I was originally set on getting the DMX, however its a 48 channel mixer and thats that. While awesome, very clean sounding thats a limitation thats going to be annoying. I'd have 48 channels of tape returns, forgetting about analog inputs.

I really need to shell out for an amek/ssl/neve large format digital console, however the price of such is going to leave me "in the red" for soooooooo many years I'll be working for the bank, not myself.
 
John Sayers said:
Have you considered the Tascam DM24 or two??

cheers
John

Yes, very seriously in fact! They do sound sweet, I have several friends who are enjoying either a single or a pair of DM24's.

But alas, I can only cascade two, not three. With two MX's (48 tracks), and two DM24's, I end up with tape returns on to control surface layers which makes it slightly less ergonomic. I know it doesn't sound like a big deal, but a big selling point for me is having the analog / synth / mic faders on one layer, and the tape returns on the second layer. I dunno, maybe its not a big deal.

I just got real used to my TMD-4000's before I started selling them off because of the automation software being incomplete.

I whine a lot, don't I? :(
 
Thats not whining!

Hi frederic, thats not whining, thats knowing what you want, and what you will not settle for. I think your wise. Some people just buy something without fully knowing its capabilitys. Then they whine. You don't. You amaze me.
fitz
 
Re: Thats not whining!

RICK FITZPATRICK said:
Hi frederic, thats not whining, thats knowing what you want, and what you will not settle for. I think your wise. Some people just buy something without fully knowing its capabilitys. Then they whine. You don't. You amaze me.
fitz

Amaze is a big strong, but thank you :)

Regarding equipment, yes, I have already made a list regarding console features - stuff I must have, stuff I'd like, stuff that would be neat to have, and stuff I really don't want.

The closest I can come to meeting that list is a row of 02R's, considering the price range I am in. I would go with a pair of DMX's in a heartbeat, however I have been unable to confirm from Sony how to cascade two of them, and what audio data would actually pass between them. Based on the few emails back and forth between them and I, I'm convinced the language barrier is impeding :(

Regarding layout, I better hurry up. 10 spools of snake cable should be arriving on thursday :) Good price, had to take advantage of it!

I have "officially" decided studio A and studio B console rooms will be close enough that a shared machine room will be between them. This saves on wasted space by having two machine rooms. And, the advantage of having some shared equipment between the two, thus saving on duplicating really neat/expensive equipment that won't be used constantly. Things like TC Helicon's vocal prism and the like.

Since whatever mixers/recorders I use will have the lightpipe interface installed, I can use splitters so "studio A" will be for recording/mixing, and then can be rented out while additional mixing/mastering can be done in studio B while A is rented out.

The problem with this is there are too many choices. Someone posted I think on this system a question if there were any companies that offer a $5000 all-in-one solution, complete with recorders, mixers, acoustical foam, etc. Thats sounding more and more attractive as time goes on.

Here's my $80K. When do the boxes arrive? LOL

Anyway, my wife is summoning me from the living room since tomorrow is a work day. Chat with ya tomorrow Rick.

PS, I need to get you hooked on cheasy cad software like Visio :)
 
Howdy frederic, well I've got Visio. And I tried to use it, but I'm spoiled on autocad. And finding time to learn one more thing....hell, I havn't even had time to plug in at least 10 new audio toys, although, my wife says, "what do you mean you havn't got time, you sit in front of that damn computer bla bla bla'ing on those bbs's at least an hour(ha, if she only knew)a day!" Trouble is, I can flop my fanny down for 10 min and chat or reply to friends, but to really plug in stuff and try it out takes up mucho time! Right now, I've been busting my butt trying to get ready to move. That means tearing down my studio and shop, so I don't have much enthusiasm for it right now. BTW-10 spools of snake?
Wow, makin your own huh?. Made up 32 cables a while back myself! ARGGGGGGGRRRRR..... Not one of my fav things to do! Well, gotta go too. I have a lot to do tommorrow. Everyday. But it beats being bored. And thanks for the answers frederic. You've taught me alot.
fitz:)
 
I'm really not qualified for this but...

I liked the first drawing so much more than the later ones so I took a stab at it. Here, you can get to the live room and percussion room from the control room. I figured that the mics in the piano room needs less fiddling. There should of course be doors to the rooms on the outer walls, I just couldn't be bothered doing them... As for the mastering room, I haven't got a clue.

/Ola

frederic1.gif
 
I just realised that you don't need double walls between the server and machine rooms and that there should be a door there...
 
Howdy frederic, well I've got Visio. And I tried to use it, but I'm spoiled on autocad. And finding time to learn one more

Thats the problem I have with Autocad :) I used to demonstrate autocad in the late 80's to architects (I was in outside sales) and I believe the version at the time was 7,8 or 9. Its been a looooong time. These were during the DOS days.

thing....hell, I havn't even had time to plug in at least 10 new audio toys, although, my wife says, "what do you mean you havn't got time, you sit in front of that damn computer bla bla bla'ing on those bbs's at least an hour(ha, if she only knew)a day!" Trouble is, I can flop my fanny down for 10 min and chat or

Funny, I have the same thing. I'm often sitting in front of the computer in my studio getting phone calls from the house (seperate lines) with "Did you fix the car?" "The pool pump is making weird noises".

Of course, per our agreement, I should be doing these things first. My bad!

reply to friends, but to really plug in stuff and try it out takes up mucho time! Right now, I've been busting my butt trying to get ready to move. That means tearing down my studio and shop, so I don't have much enthusiasm for it right now.

I hear that!

BTW-10 spools of snake?

Yep. 10 spools of 500' mogomi 24-ch TRS cable. Good price so I decided to stockpile it for when the time comes. Of course, I'll have eaten up most of a garage bay with the spools until I cart it over to the studio building, which I won't do until the construction is done. Which, won't be until i finish my plan LOL

Wow, makin your own huh?. Made up 32 cables a while back myself! ARGGGGGGGRRRRR..... Not one of my fav things to do!

I used to like soldering. Though I'm going to hate it very soon :) Did you know that 10 spools of 24 ch TRS cable, in short room to room runs, will be about 18,000 solder joints? Even bought a weller iron off e-bay for this task :) My cheapo 8 buck ratshack iron will probably overheat and burst into flames :)

And thanks for the answers frederic. You've taught me alot.

As you have me. Thats what this forum is for, right? :)
 
Re: I'm really not qualified for this but...

ola said:
I liked the first drawing so much more than the later ones so I took a stab at it. Here, you can get to the live room and percussion room from the control room. I figured that the mics in the piano room needs less fiddling. There should of course be doors to the rooms on the outer walls, I just couldn't be bothered doing them... As for the mastering room, I haven't got a clue.
Good job Ola, I like it a lot! And you're right about a piano room. Not sure how everyone else mic's pianos but I usually use a pair of PZM mics lying on a rubber pad on the floor, facing the soundboard on the bottom.

Thank you very much!

Rick - you have some competition here heh-heh
 
Back
Top