Mics for large vocal group?

[sile2001]

Hi guys! I've been browsing the forum for a while, and there are some darned knowledgable folks here!

Anyway, I've been doing to field recordings of a large vocal group for a few years now, and while the recordings have been sounding alright, I'm just wondering if anyone here any any thoughts on how to improve it with different mic selection and/or placement. The room is less than ideal, but it's what we have to work with.

Here's the basic layout of the place:

The dimensions are approximate, as i'm just going off memory here. The room has an 8ft acoustic ceiling and a bare concrete floor. X marks the spot where i've been placing the mic's so far. The borders are solid walls and the filled in black areas would be filled with 80-100 singers.

So far, I've been using an X-Y coincident setup set about head-high and angled about 10 degrees up from horizontal. All previous recordings have been done with AKG C1000S mics. I now have a pair of M-Audio Solaris LDC's. For recordings like this I really don't know whether SDC's or LDC's would be more appropriate. Any suggestions on different mics would also be welcome.

It's a lot of info, but I'd appreciate any feedback!

 

[wheelema]

PM Massive Master. He may have some input.

 

[mshilarious]

So far, I've been using an X-Y coincident setup set about head-high and angled about 10 degrees up from horizontal. All previous recordings have been done with AKG C1000S mics. I now have a pair of M-Audio Solaris LDC's. For recordings like this I really don't know whether SDC's or LDC's would be more appropriate. Any suggestions on different mics would also be welcome

I believe SDCs have more neutral off-axis response than LDCs, and are thus usually used for ensembles. That's what I use anyway. Check Harvey's giant thread, I remember he talked about that.

I think it's more typical to put the mics head high for the second or third row of singers and aim down rather than up. Low & aimed up will deemphasize the back rows and they are further away & blocked by the singers in front.

You might also try 3 spaced SDCs, closer to the singers, that gives you a little more control over the various sections, and take the room more out of the equation.

 

[Innovations]

I have been using a ORTF pair of LDCs, specifically MXL 2003's with what I consider to be good results in recording choirs. compared to your description what I have been doing is:

1. Pull the mic a little further back. Try to get everybody as equidistant from it as possible. In your diagram the persons to the side are much further away from the mic than the ones in the center. A hemisphere works really nice.

2. Lift the mics higher and point them at the back row. This puts the back row directly on-axis and partly makes up for the fact that they are farther away.

3. If the room sounds good, then great. If not deaden it and then add reverb during the mix.

mshilarious is right, the other approach would be to line them up in rows and use three or more spaced mics, but again they would be high and pointed at the back row.

The following document has a chapter on mic position for choirs.

http://www.shure.com/pdf/booklets/audio_for_houses_of_worship.pdf

 

[DJL]

I'm just wondering if anyone here any any thoughts on how to improve it with different mic selection and/or placement. It's a lot of info, but I'd appreciate any feedback!

Close mic everything... and either pre-mix or record to separate tracks and mx later.

 

[mshilarious]

Close mic everything... and either pre-mix or record to separate tracks and mx later.

That's not going to yield a choir sound, that will sound like a bunch of individual voices. I don't think you want to remove the room entirely, which is what that would do, and then try to artifically reconstruct the choir space in mixdown.

 

[DJL]

That's not going to yield a choir sound, that will sound like a bunch of individual voices. I don't think you want to remove the room entirely, which is what that would do, and then try to artifically reconstruct the choir space in mixdown.

What do you suggest then?

 

[Innovations]

Close mic everything... and either pre-mix or record to separate tracks and mx later.

Close mic 80-100 individual singers in a single space in a field setup? That is sort of, but not quite, like trying to close mic each string on a piano.

 

[Rev E]

A lot of times you lose the power of the group with a lot of mics strewn about the place. I'd say 1 or 2 stereo pairs. Perhaps a closer one (maybe in M/S) and a more distant stereo pair or a mid-distant stereo pair in M/S and 3 or so individual mics micing a single section of singers (e.g. altos, sopranos, etc) a bit closer.

 

[DJL]

I might look at it more like miking an orchestra or church service.

 

[sile2001]

Thanks for all the suggestions! In the past I've been limited to stereo input (via my M-Audio Firewire 410), but I just recently picked up a Motu 828 MkII, so now I can track multiple stereo setups at the same time.

I should be able to try several combinations, like M/S with SDC's and ORTF with LDC's all at the same time...only trick is having enough mics....hmmm, maybe this is a good excuse for another visit to the music store!

 

[Innovations]

Thanks for all the suggestions! In the past I've been limited to stereo input (via my M-Audio Firewire 410), but I just recently picked up a Motu 828 MkII, so now I can track multiple stereo setups at the same time.

I should be able to try several combinations, like M/S with SDC's and ORTF with LDC's all at the same time...only trick is having enough mics....hmmm, maybe this is a good excuse for another visit to the music store!

Honestly I would go with no more than a single XY or ORTF pair with individual mics for the soloists during their solos. Anything more and you are looking at a lot of cost for a nightmare of bleed and phase distortion. You are going to be way better in the long run by thinking of the choir as one very large instrument and approach it along the same lines as how you mic other large instruments like pianos or Harps. It isnt a matter of having a mic for every string but positioning the mics that you do use so that they pick up the whole sound of the piano.

 

[DJL]

Thanks for all the suggestions! ..only trick is having enough mics....hmmm, maybe this is a good excuse for another visit to the music store!

Your welcome... and we never have too many mics.

 

[mshilarious]

I might look at it more like miking an orchestra or church service.

Yeah, it is like an orchestra, which is mainly some sort of coincident setup with a few spot mics for emphasis. I don't know what 'church service' means, that could be anything from a band to a choir to an orchestra to all of them combined. The approach to miking that is gonna vary with each situation.

Whether to use MS vs. XY or similar for me is dependent on the type of ensemble as well as your mic collection. MS is cool, but say for a band or orchestra (I don't get to do an orchestra, just a school band), I like to hear the instruments on their proper side, so I like XY. For my school choir, which is nearly all girls, either would work.

So if your choir is arranged by voice, then I'd lean towards XY (ORTF, etc). Although MS gives you an excuse to use those new Solarises (Solari?)

 

[sile2001]

Actually in this group, there never are any soloists. It's always just the choir as a group. The reason I mentioned the several different mics is so I can try different techniques on the same take and choose after-the-fact which mic pair sounds best. But once again, thank you everyone for your input!

btw, the Solarises (or whatever you call a deuce of them) sound really really good! A most excellent and versatile mic that can be had for arround $240. I've used them on everything from regular vocals to acoustic miking to ambient amp miking to drum overheads. Can't recommend them highly enough!