micing the modern high-gain metal rig, need help

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eedude

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I’m in home recording hell right now. I have been battling my setup for a month or more trying to capture the essence of what if projecting from my amp. I have a Hafler Triple Giant (Bogner) and a Kasha Rockmod I for pre’s. I use a Pevaey classic 60 (6l6’s), into a 4x12 with Celestion G12-65’s. Acoustically my rig rocks, lots of chunk and clarity.

I’m micing with an SN57 (the guitar cab mic right?). This goes into a Realistic (don’t laugh, it’s not the problem) mixer into an Emu sound card.

For the life of me I cannot get the “tone of god” that is projecting form the amp ;). I have tried on axis, off axis, in close (0.5”) far away (4”) real far (12”). I know (think) the correct position close in, 1” or so, off center closer to the rim. But this still fails me. I get weak bass and a lot of mid trash, ouch.

At this point, I’m thinking the SM57 just aint gonna do the job, or the G12-65’s are too nasty.

Looking a curves, the Beta57 seems to have a significant bass boost due to proximity effect…

I have tried (very briefly) a GT condenser. It was so bright, I put it away (then sold it).

Any input for micing the modern high-gain metal rig?

Thanks,
Joe
 
Isnt the RADIO SHACK mixer essentially the preamp in your chain? That is definitely the weakest link in your chain.

I use the Sennhieser e609silver right up to the speaker grill with great results when i mic up my 5 watt tube amp. its sounds big and powerful.
 
could be gear issues like the Rat Shack mixer.
Just a thought for you. When you listen to your amp you are hearing it in stereo since you have 2 ears. You might try throwing up another mic and record to a couple of tracks and then pan them a bit. You need to watch for phase issues.
 
Even Behringer is better than anything Radioshack makes. I'd invest in a single channel preamp with as much money as you can pull together. 100 - 200 dollar investment will greatly improve your signal chain. You should definitely consider it! If you can get 500 get an FMR RNP. That's a pre that really gets talked about around here.
 
Also.....you have to look at the guitar tones in the context of a mix. Unless your recording a piece that is solo guitar for metal (which I doubt) then alot of the "chunk" will come from the bass.
With that said, I can't stand the 57 on either of my amps (mesa boogie, marshall) in this context. Borrow some mics and see if anything changes, as previously stated your mic pre is probably the culprit in this case.
Using alot less gain than you normally would is a good starting point for recording. Also don't be afraid to hi-pass the guitars. They might sound thin solo'ed but what really counts is how they sound in the mix.
 
thanks or the input so far...

Thanks for the input so far…

Man, I tried to steer you guys away from the Radio Shack mixer, and you didn’t bite. I understand it is the weakest link in my setup, but I have tried a Behringer mixer as a pre and an ART DPSII going SPDIF into the sound card. In general both sounded worse. I think due to their extreme high frequency flatness. Anyway….

- Chunk and how it fits in the mix.
I would like to be able to capture the chunk as-is, and HP it out if there is too much mud. I do a lot of demo stuff which is just a midi drum track and rhythm guitar, maybe a lead as well. I don’t waste time with bass, I don’t need it for the demo. So in that case I would keep as much of the chunk in lieu of the bass guitar. But Wireneck you point is well taken. Wireneck you mention you dislike the SM57 in this context, what have you used successfully?

Here are my thoughts for getting to about 80% of the perfect tone on tape. This is in no order, but these are the most significant factors IMO.

1) The pre-amp (Hafler TG, Check awsome)
2) The Power amp (Peavey Classic 60, Hmm.. well it’s OK I could de better)
3) Speakers (Clestion G12-65, Hmm… I duno how good these are, I have had them for 20 years and their all I have ever used, holy crap I’m old)
4) The mic (SM57, a classic)
5) Mic position, aha…. I have no idea the right placement but have tried several except anal.
6) Final EQ, I have no idea what to do here. Cakewalk stuff really sucks in the signal processing area.

Anyway my tone still sucks…. I have tried backing off the gain of the amp as Wireneck suggested, it just wimps out. I have read the thread from hell about micing high gain amps, and it’s all well and good, but I can’t afford a $1000 just for a parametric EQ.

I sold my soul today and bought a POD to get some work done. I have not given up on getting my rock’n rig in to my computer, so any input is still appreciated.

Thanks!

Joe
 
eedude said:
2)The Power amp (Peavey Classic 60, Hmm.. well it’s OK I could de better)
Click to expand...


That's probably your culprit right there, I'm guessing.

I'm actually a big fan of the Peavey Classic series stuff ... for blues or clean stuff. They have a real nice, lush "Fender-ish" sound.

You couldn't pay me enough to even try and track anything resembling modern "high gain" with 'em, though, I'm sorry to say. :D :D It's just not their thing. Now if you like Peavey stuff -- and there's no reason not to; they've made some really good amps (despite what some might say) -- their VTM models are actually pretty good for that heavy, gainy stuff. Kind of a poor man's triple rec. I'm sure one of those would sound stellar with your Bogner clone or whatever. :D The VTM's can be found on ebay for a couple hundred bucks.

Lastly, I would ditch the 57 and instead, try a kick drum mic. Something like an Audio Technica ATM-25 should do the trick. Might give you some more meat, with a little more rolloff in the extreme highs as well. Hundred bucks or so -- done.

From there, 'ya just have to experiment. And mind your basics -- make sure your gain staging is near-perfect and nothing anywhere is clipping, etc.
 
EEDUDE- I like the Electrovoice-635a alot on my amps but I seem to be the odd man out on that one. The other big contender seems to be the Sennheiser E609. I've never tried one but many people seem to prefer those as an alternative to the shure 57.
At the end of the day if you can't get the sound your going for and you are pretty certain your doing most things right, it may be your amp. I wouldn't really know what your going for without hearing it but don't expect a peavey to turn out the sound of a mesa or a fender etc...... Im not saying that you can't get good tones with your amp but its going to take alot more work if your trying to mimic certain sounds.

btw......if your interested
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/7/theburdenofexistencemusic.htm

the two songs on their (not totally mixed) were my marshall and mesa recorded with the EV-635a.
 
You know, I've got a different band in every week, and I get to try out a lot of guitar amps, cheap nad expensive, and a lot of ways to mic them. 95% of the time, what the amp sounds like is not even close to how it records, in my experience.
When recording metal chuncky stuff, I always add some mid to it (always too scooped out to record well) and roll out the bass. Bass heavy guitar amps dont record well, too boomy in the end.
Anyway, getting to try a lot of amps out, I found myself VERY surprised this last weekend when someone brought in a Peavy head with a Sheffield loaded peavy cab. I think the head was an Ultra something or the other, I'll find out for sure cause I now intend to obtain one. It COULD have been the Sheffield speakers, I dunno, but the thing recorded incredibly. Now, it didnt sound great in the room, just jamming, although it did sound GOOD... for whatever voodoo reasons that there are, this thing had the tone that RECORDS... think the guitar tone on the new Chevelle... I rarely get anything that polished in my little setup... I put up a 441 into an RNP straight in, boxed the cab off with pieces of 1 inch rigid fiberglass panels so it was essentially in its own iso-booth, no room reflections at all, and had the guitar player play while someone else moved the mic around, and we sat in the next room and listened on the monitors.... found a spot we liked, doubled a minute of the song, listened back, moved the mic a tad, doubled up a section of the song again and POW.... the money shot. The guitar sound is huge, sparkly, punchy, excellent... couldnt believe what was coming out. And the band was loving it. They are coming back in to do more guitars next tuesday, with that rig, and I plan to test that cab with my MEsa head too, to see if the cab really was making much difference. Sheffields are supposedly nice speakers, right? I dont know much about them... but whatever it was with this getup.... it killed.

And for the record, I cant ever ever ever get a happy guitar sound with a 57, or anything cheaper than an RNP. Find yourself a used 441 and jackoff nightly.

Hmm, did I have a piont here?
Oh well...
 
eedude said:
Cakewalk stuff really sucks in the signal processing area.
Joe
Click to expand...


Hmmmmmm, Cakewalk can do anything that any other Daw software can do, so what are you finding that sucks.
 
chadsxe said:
Hmmmmmm, Cakewalk can do anything that any other Daw software can do, so what are you finding that sucks.
Click to expand...

I haven't used cakewalk, so I'm not taking sides here. But there IS a difference to what a software "can do", and what it sounds like when they do it. A program that does all the effects and dynamics known to the world will still suck ass if the results doesn't sound any good.
 
Stefan Elmblad said:
A program that does all the effects and dynamics known to the world will still suck ass if the results doesn't sound any good.
Click to expand...

That's pretty amazing logic. :D So what you're saying is that if something sucks ... um ... then ...

alright, ya lost me on this one.
 
-- Cake walk effects
I’m using Home Studio XL. All the effects that came with HS perform very poorly compared to some others that I have tried (IMO). In particulate the parametric EQ I feel is awful and I really need it to properly take the hash out of the high-end of the guitar. I understand that how you use something does make a different, and yes I could make $1000 EQ sound like crap. But the cake walk stuff just seems terrible. Maybe the stuff shipped with Sonar is better, I don’t know.


Peavey Classic 60

Yeah, this on is on my list of culprits. It’s fairly new in my setup and is somewhat coincident with my crappy recordings. As far as doing metal stuff, it works great. But I think it has some high-end grit that is causing what I capture to be too brittle. The Classic 60 does not have a presences control, which is really too bad. I used to have a Hafler G300 (solid state). The Classic 60 sounds more “alive” than the G300. But I think the subdued high-end of the G300 probably help with recording. I don’t have the G300 anymore to go back and do some A/B.

Thanks for the input, guys. I think I need to:

1) Change the power-amp to something else
2) Test out some other mic’s (thanks for some recommendations)
3) Speaker’s ?? any comments on the G12-65’s. These seem to be off the beaten track as far as celestions go.
4) Mic pre…. Maybe… man I can’t afford $400 for a RNP. So it has to be something in the $100 range.
Thanks

Joe
 
If you're happy with the sound from the amp, don't change it. Change the way with which you capture it. More simple logic. If you tried everything else, try a mic where you have your head when you think it sounds good. Worth a shot if nothing works.
 
Harvey Gerst said:
Probably a Peavey UltraPlus 100 Tube Guitar Amplifier. Very nice amp, 3 channels. The Peavey Classic 50 isn't bad either.
Click to expand...

Probably... it was indeed a tube head... you had any luck recording them? I cant beleive how great it sounded coming back out of the monitors with a 441 in front of it. Million bux. When I post it online I'll get at least 10 new bookings out of it. :)
 
Stefan Elmblad said:
If you're happy with the sound from the amp, don't change it. Change the way with which you capture it. More simple logic. If you tried everything else, try a mic where you have your head when you think it sounds good. Worth a shot if nothing works.
Click to expand...

BINGO!! If you like the sound in the room, then mic the sound in the room! Typically, you will want at least two microphones.. one for the room, and one for close placement.
 
My only inclination is to say:

IF your setup sounds Godlike as is, then get a mic that will record it transparently. A small condenser comes to mind.
 
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