Mic'ing an acoustic guitar in X/Y configuration

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Modus

Modus

Zaireeka!
Ok, so I've heard a little about X/Y configuration but I don't have a mental picture of how this is set up. Does anyone know where I could see a picture or could someone maybe explain this to me?

Thanks

Modus
 
Read this thread below

"How does diaphragm size/polar pattern relate to mic applications?"
 
Re: Read this thread below

tdukex said:
"How does diaphragm size/polar pattern relate to mic applications?"

Bring your lunch...and your dinner...

And take notes. Lots of notes.

Better yet, buy a ream of printer paper, print the .pdf file linked in the thread (or you can find it at www.prosoundweb.com in the Rec Pit. Harvey Gerst has a board in the Pit, and he's got the .pdf file listed as a "sticky" at the top of his forum.), put it in a 3-ring binder, and put it in your studio. There ain't been a book written yet that I've found that has as much knowledge in it.
 
Yo modus. Generally, X-Y, also known as coincedent stereo recording, is done with 2 small diaphragm cardioid mics. Picture the setup as a wide letter "V", with the capsules of the mics either on top of one another or side by side, as close as they can be to each other without touching. Usually the angle between the two mics is a little greater than 90 degrees, say 110d.
Phase problems shouldn't occur, as the capsules are so close together that the sound reaches tham pretty much at the same time. Check www.sound-room.com and click on octava microphones. Then click on "matched stereo pairs", which will show you a pair of Octava MC012's in Sabrasom shock mounts in coincedent arrangement.
In theory, at least, the pickup patterns of the two mics overlap like the fields of the two halves of a pair of binoculars and come into focus, creating a clear stereo image. Generally, this works out well backed off a little from an acoustic, say 2-4'. It also works really well for a larger source such as a band or choral group, backed off 20-30'. With the Octavas in particular, I found that a dreadnought can actually move enough air to cause them to pop, and putting a pop filter in front of them can be a good idea, which surprised me.
I usually back them off until one mic is pointed at the 12th fret and the other at the bridge. I often combine the pair with a larger diaphragm cardioid mic, over the left shoulder angled down toward the upper bout, or an omni backed off, as an ambient mic, to pick up the whole room. It's even feasible to augment the stereo pair slightly with a direct signal from a good pickup, if your guitar has one, into a pretty good preamp. Hope this helps.-Richie
 
Thanks a lot, thats pretty much exactly what I was looking for. More than enough info to dig into, thanks guys.

Modus
 
A Question for Richie

Hi, Richie.

I just read your response regarding X-Y recording pattern, and appreciated the information very much. I was searching for this information and was happy to read your post and be referred to a photo, because I really had the wrong idea about X-Y, and I am a complete novice in recording, as you have already learned.

So, thanks very much.

If I may, I would like to ask you a question...

Your post refers to small diaphram mics, and I was wondering if this same X-Y pattern should be used if one records using larger diaphram mics like the Studio Projects B1's, a pair of which I'm hoping to be able to buy today.

I don't comprehend the diaphram size issue well enough to know the implications, and thus am not sure how to point them when recording a group of 10 children at a time.

Thank you very much, Richie.

Julia
 
Julia,

you're interpretation is right. You can use the X-Y setup with Large Diaphragm (LDC) or Small Diaphragm (SDC) condensers. Typically, SDC's are used, because of their more even frequency response. But LDC's can also be configured in this manner. With a LDC, you'll probably be using what is called "near-coincident X-Y", where the two mics are as close to each other as possible, but next to each other. With some SDC's, you try to set them up such that the centers of the two diaphragms are at the same point on an imaginary line straight up from the floor. They are then on top of one-another, and this is more like true "coincident X-Y". For an example of what this looks like, go to musiciansfriend.com (or any retail web site), and search for the Rode NT-4, which is automatically set up this way.

The other option for your two B1's is to used a "spaced pair" setup, where the two mics are not right next to each other. This will create a different soundstage than an X-Y arrangement, and it's worth experimenting with both. For the spaced pair, a good rule of thumb is the 3-to-1 rule, where you need to make sure that the mic's are at least 3 times as far apart from one another as they are from the source. So if your mics are 2 feet from the kids, they should be 6 feet away from each other, in order to minimize phase problems (sound arriving at the two mics at different times, and cancelling itself out).

-MG
 
Hello Julia! You can use two large diaphragm mics for X-Y, but the larger housings means they can't be placed quite as close together, and of course, they have to be vertical, as they are characteristically addressed from the side. The principal remains the same. With B-1's, I would tend to favor the spaced technique described above, but either technique should work.-Richie
 
Just to augment the great advice above, one factor to consider when choosing between XY and spaced pair is how stationary the source is going to be. XY pairs are very sensitive to movement, like if a guitarist likes to get into the groove while he's playing and move around a bit. Im not talking about walking around, just swaying a little. Spaced pairs are less sensitive to this kind of movement, and won't give you an unaturally shifting sound field like an XY pair can in this situation.
Cheers, RD
 
Decision...

Thanks very much, Friends...

I've decided to keep it as simple as possible (despite the fact that I'm outfitting so many kids with headphones!), and simply record the small groups of children using a single B1 microphone.

I hope it works well.

Something dawned on me this morning, which is that behind the stage where I intended to do the recording is the boiler/heating system of the school, which I'm sure I will also be recording! So I'm not going to be able to record the children there.

The only other option is the small room (w-to-w carpeting, but VERY small room) with three of four walls CEMENT, the longest wall having four large windows nearly all the way across it!)

Help.

Can I use this room or not? If there is a way, then how do I "insulate" the room best? And finally, how to I place the ten (at a time) children? The room is small, and longer than it is wide. Probably six feet wide and 20-ish feet long.

Oh, boy...

Should I record the soloists in my home? I only have a small room here, filled with stuff, and two windows (which I can cover)...but I'm wondering about the sensitivity of a condenser mic. I've never used one before. So I'm starting to worry that they're SO sensitive that they'll pick up the furnace kicking on, a dog barking outside, etc. Am I worrying too much? :)

Thanks very much.

Julia
 
Hi Julia.
I don't know if you had other posts that described you recording project, so I might be off here.
The AC noise can be a problem, depending on it's relative volume, how critical the sound quality.
A few options; Can you get it turned off for the recording time? (Will people freeze if you do?) Sometime it's as easy as having someone turn off an AC time clock...? The other thing to consider is how close you can get the mic(s) to the group. A group of ten in a tight semi-circle in the middle of the room, (away from the noise?) with 'xy' mics right in front of them? Don't know your details...:) Or, like you said, at home. That would be a more quiet and intimate rendition.
What's the headphones for?
Wayne
 
thanks, mixit

Hi, Wayne...and thank you.

I won't bore you with all the gorry details, but I'm recording a group of children, 10 students at a time, and I'll be outfitting them each with headphones for the purpose of attempting to obtain a clean recording.

The school is a rough environment acoustically, but I can only record the soloists in my home...not the groups of kids.

Thanks so much for your input.

Julia
 
Julia, talk nice to the maintenance man and he can probably turn down the thermostat for short periods of time when tou are tracking. It's what I have to do in my studio-Richie
 
Julia,
The room with the cement walls sounds like a bad option.You'd probably get unwanted reflections from the walls.It's possible that that would sound good,but more likely it will sound awful.
The mic will definitely pick up the heating system,if you can hear it on the stage.
Your best solution is to get someone to turn off the heating system.Explain that you only need the system off for 3 or 4 minutes at a time.Use a couple of cell phones,and bribe the person.And ask one of the kids to remind you to get the heat turned off before you do each take.
Well done on thinking of this beforehand.I wouldn't have thought of it until I listened to the first playback and said,"hey what's that noise?"
I didn't read your other thread.I'm curious why you are having the kids wear headphones.I would skip adding that foreign element,and just record them singing as they are used to practicing or performing.They are already going to be nervous that they're being recorded.Your first hurdle is going to be getting them relaxed and singing naturally.Just my 2 cents.
-Dave
 
hey guys

this is a photo of my xy config

make sure there is no white noise anywhere.

I was able to hear a gnat brushing his teeth 3 miles away with these things :eek:

hope it helps

jeffsxymicing.jpg
 
Funny you should post that Jeff. I just did that very thing with my 012's today for a lead, but I decided that the spread wasn't enough to cut through the mix I anticipated...which would be pretty full as you might guess knowing my stuff.
But I think I captured a couple gnats singing Christmas carols outside nonetheless. :D
 
This would be a near coincident pair of AT-4033s
 

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TO Dave Brophy...

Hi, Dave...

TO respond to your question, the reason I'm using headphones on the kids is to minimize phasing issues...delay caused by playing the orchestration to them through floor/stage monitors...the timing will be slightly off, and will create a delay in the recording...

By the way...I decided to just go with one B1 this time around. I need to get this accomplished soon, and don't want to complicate matters by having to figure out how to set up two condensers (which I've never used in my life) without having the sounds cancel each other out, etc.

We'll see what happens. I'm nervous!

Thanks again.
 
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