Mic pres: Spend $200 or $2,000 ? ? ?

  • Thread starter Thread starter chessrock
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I wish I could agree with you 100% Moshe, but I can't. We have a Focusrite Red at the studio that sits a whole lot. Me and the other engineer, and most importantly, CLIENTS usually agree when that sucker is put up against an ART that it in fact sounds worse in MANY applications. It DOES work very well for specific applications, such as when we want a very silky acoustic guitar track, or have a vocalist who is very "muddy" sounding. Otherwise, it is just doesn't sound that good. $1100 per channel! and an ART smokes it in most applications. Oh well....

Eddie
 
Shailat said:
if "SOUND" is an issue then the whole chain from mic to pre to.....adds up to single heavenly sound that can NOT be reached by a $200 pre.
Click to expand...

Somebody please tell me he's lying?! :D
 
Oh, and doesn't Shailat mean "pimp" or "partyboy" or "spoiled only child" in Isreal? ;)

Eddie
 
Im glad I read this thread.

I think one issue that lies beneath the surface of the equipment snobbery, it wanting to own something that won't get us slammed when we confess that we own a particular piece of equipment. I don't think a HOME recordist should be worried about a $2000 preamp, he should be looking for a balance in the overall signal chain. Most of us realistically won't be building a home studio with an SSL or Neve console, that kinda studio requires capital investments from usually more than one contributor. When I buy something, I know usually that I will outgrow it sooner or later, but I will make the best of it. Everything enters into your brain through your ears, train your ears. Ive been doing alot of lights out testing, I turn out the lights and mix. I turn knobs without looking, I use my ears to turn the knob instead of my eyes. Ive been recording just system noise and seeing where I can and can't hear it. As anyone ever used their editor to determine what their noise floor is, not the equipments, your ears. Music is about listening, not looking. Specs are for looking. Double blindfold testing is a gear snobs least favorite activity.


Peace,
Dennis
 
perspective

threads like this always make me laugh.

where is the perspecitve on this thread?

A $200 pre is better than a $2000 pre. Perhaps, what are you recording?

Not once has anyone mentioned an application and the insinuation that one pre will be the solution for all your problems lies on the surface of this thread, and its appaling.

The bad news kids, is that after you spend tons of money on a pre, you'll realize the it sounds good for this, the cheaper pre sounds better for that and before you know it, youll have a collection of 15 different pre's and you'll chuckle at how naive you were for thinking there was a quick fix solution for good sound.

Is there any reason why a studio with a Neve console would have external pre's? Sure! You may not want that transformer goodness on EVERY track on your record. Then again, the reason why you may have chosen to trak at a prticular studio is so you CAN have transformers on every track.

All these things are very case specific. But on thing is for sure, you are only as good as your weakest link. Everything is relative to that weakest link.

consider the situation where you have one U47 and a box of radio shack mics. Yes, that U47 will sound great on your recording for a few tracks, but if you record with the radio shack stuff, chances are it is going to make the radio shak mics sound HORRIBLE, compared to if you just used the radio shack mics alone, at least then your recording will sound consistent.

If you dont understand things like impedance, class A vs. class a/b amplification, transformers vs. transformerless pre's, chances are that you dont own a studio that merits having that kind of gear in it in the first place. Be patient and you will learn this stuff and you wont find yourself saying things like "is it really true that this pre that costs this much REALLY sounds better" becuase you will have figured out that answer for yourself.

dave
 
Re: perspective

therealsoundguy said:
threads like this always make me laugh.

where is the perspecitve on this thread?

A $200 pre is better than a $2000 pre. Perhaps, what are you recording?

Not once has anyone mentioned an application and the insinuation that one pre will be the solution for all your problems lies on the surface of this thread, and its appaling.

The bad news kids, is that after you spend tons of money on a pre, you'll realize the it sounds good for this, the cheaper pre sounds better for that and before you know it, youll have a collection of 15 different pre's and you'll chuckle at how naive you were for thinking there was a quick fix solution for good sound.

Is there any reason why a studio with a Neve console would have external pre's? Sure! You may not want that transformer goodness on EVERY track on your record. Then again, the reason why you may have chosen to trak at a prticular studio is so you CAN have transformers on every track.

All these things are very case specific. But on thing is for sure, you are only as good as your weakest link. Everything is relative to that weakest link.

consider the situation where you have one U47 and a box of radio shack mics. Yes, that U47 will sound great on your recording for a few tracks, but if you record with the radio shack stuff, chances are it is going to make the radio shak mics sound HORRIBLE, compared to if you just used the radio shack mics alone, at least then your recording will sound consistent.

If you dont understand things like impedance, class A vs. class a/b amplification, transformers vs. transformerless pre's, chances are that you dont own a studio that merits having that kind of gear in it in the first place. Be patient and you will learn this stuff and you wont find yourself saying things like "is it really true that this pre that costs this much REALLY sounds better" becuase you will have figured out that answer for yourself.

dave
Click to expand...

Thanx, Dave
I agree 100%.
All equipment has various applications, depending on the desired outcome.
This thread, except for your post, strikes me as an argument as to which color is best to use when oil painting.
Depends on what you're painting.
The one you like is the one to use.
Even if you've used every pre-amp made, the choices a person would make as to which one to use are as subjective as tastes in food or music.
I can tell you're an experienced person in these matters.
Welcome to these boards.
I hope you will share your knowledge with us here.
Interestingly, I found the most perspective from someone who has only 6 posts, and the person who was telling everyone don't worry, just go record some more, has over 3500 posts...
hmmmmm.....
;)
Again, welcome.
Your post was a breath of fresh air.

Carmen

PS
I use a Meek VC1Q most of the time and think it ROCKS.
 
There are no hard and fast rules about what is right and what is best. I don't proclaim to be a high end studio owner, because I'm just another home project studio guy like many others. Still, one of the things that gets lost in the search for the great sounding mic pre/mic/recording platform--whatever-- is this: the actual sound source you are trying to capture. A $2000 pre won't make a bad sounding instrument sound like the voice of God or a lousy vocalist sound like a pro. At best, you'll get an extremely accurate impression of a bad sound source.

If you want to talk about signal chain, first think of what is creating the sound, then what the ROOM sounds like, then the choice of microphone and the PLACEMENT of that mic. I think this is too often ignored when somebody is drooling over some high end piece of gear that will transform his/her recordings into pro caliber work. If your source and room are wonderful and you can find the killer mic placement, then its time to think about what different pre's may add to the sound.

There is a lot of truth in the comment that the time spent getting things right is directly proportional to the final outcome of a recording. You CAN achieve pro results with low end gear--and you can make a mess of things with expensive gear if you haven't worked on the sound source/room/mic placement. I do think that if you have paid attention to the signal chain BEFORE it arrives at the mic pre, you'll get some sonic benefit from a high end pre. But there are many other factors. Thats my point. If you put all your instruments in the same register, your mix is gonna sound like mud no matter how you do your recording. The other point is to learn to squeeze all you can out of what you have. Then, when you do get some nice new piece of gear, it will be apparent whether it is better than what you used to have.
 
There are no hard and fast rules about what is right and what is best. I don't proclaim to be a high end studio owner, because I'm just another home project studio guy like many others. Still, one of the things that gets lost in the search for the great sounding mic pre/mic/recording platform--whatever-- is this: the actual sound source you are trying to capture. A $2000 pre won't make a bad sounding instrument sound like the voice of God or a lousy vocalist sound like a pro. At best, you'll get an extremely accurate impression of a bad sound source.

If you want to talk about signal chain, first think of what is creating the sound, then what the ROOM sounds like, then the choice of microphone and the PLACEMENT of that mic. I think this is too often ignored when somebody is drooling over some high end piece of gear that will transform his/her recordings into pro caliber work. If your source and room are wonderful and you can find the killer mic placement, then its time to think about what different pre's may add to the sound.

There is a lot of truth in the comment that the time spent getting things right is directly proportional to the final outcome of a recording. You CAN achieve pro results with low end gear--and you can make a mess of things with expensive gear if you haven't worked on the sound source/room/mic placement. I do think that if you have paid attention to the signal chain BEFORE it arrives at the mic pre, you'll get some sonic benefit from a high end pre. But there are many other factors. Thats my point. If you put all your instruments in the same register, your mix is gonna sound like mud no matter how you do your recording. The other point is to learn to squeeze all you can out of what you have. Then, when you do get some nice new piece of gear, it will be apparent whether it is better than what you used to have.
 
Craw, Carmen, Realsound,
your points are well taken - a high quality preamp does very little if the entire cound chain is flawed. Btw, that's something that has been said already in the second post to this thread. Your posts just talk about it a tad more broadly.

However, as much as things are very subjective (and as much as different preamps are like "colors" for a painter), people who ask around for "better" gear are not complete fools. There is "good" gear and "bad" gear out there. Do you also use cheap cables at times instead of expensive cables? That should give you a few more "colors". Or why not use cheap AD conversion for yet another set of "colors"?
Point is, unless you're extreme "artistic" about things, not every "color" we get in our home studios should really be part of a song. There are some crappy pieces of gear out there ... trust me, if've used them. And what they do is not adding a color, they're destroying sound.

So, when people search for better preamps, what they are trying to do is eradicate the problems coming with their current gear - they're not looking for a new "color". They're looking for their first , or second one. But to say that it doesn't matter which preamp to start with (Radioshack or Neve) is like telling an aspiring painter to use dog shit to paint in brown. Sure, it's a color but a color with too many negative side-effects.
 
I like how people start in on all this talk that good engineering skills can somehow be replaced by gear!

Color....Ha!!! Most of you could not tell the difference between a ClassA pre and a crappy Nady preamp on the same source sound. I will wager that almost NONE of you could say which is which, and I am betting that if I posted the same source just running though 2 different preamps, you would all be evenly splitted between which you prefer.

I said it earlier, you all are giving big dollar preamps WAY too much credit. I suspect most of you who go on the whole "this color in the sound, that color in the sound" would have been sorely wrong in guessing which preamp I used on that mp3 I linked to earlier in this thread. Do you also color the sides of your CD green with a felt marker? ;)

Eddie
 
I was actually trying to go a little sarcastic on the "color" issue ... guess I failed :D
My point was that the very problem of homerecorders like myself is that we "don't" know much (if anyting) about colors and stuff. But we do now the difference between complete crap and something usable. I've used Radioshack mics, ... what's the next step up? etc.

I won't spend $2000 on any one piece of gear if the rest of my equipment/room and my skill isn't up to the same $2000 level. But, hey, I've got budget gear and a budget room and budget skills ... and $400 in my pocket. I realize I need a preamp ... shouldn't I be asking for recommendations in that price range?
 
mcr---yes! If $400 is all you have to throw at an upgrade, then lets concentrate on that. My comments were just to add a little balance to the fixation on gear in general.

Both the Studio Projects pre and the RNMP (both pending) would fall into your price point, but we don't know the verdict on either as of yet. So, option one is to wait and see.

From all I have heard here, if I had 4 bills, I'd buy a DMP3 and an RNC. I could use my Levelar when I want optical compression. I'd get a good EQ down the road, and that would be my channel strip.

What I'd like is Neves! A friend of mine has a pair in a studio and I have heard what they sound like--wonderful! He also dots his i's and crosses his t's. He's very particular about room and mic placement. Anyway, the Neve is out of my budget for now, but I'll get there some day. Meanwhile, I'm writing and recording and getting something done with what I have, which is the point of owning a home studio in the first place.

Believe me, I have the utmost respect for for everybody looking to find gear that will give them the slightest edge. I mean, thats why we talk about this stuff and share views. Excuse me if I get a bit skeptical when I hear someone say that "brand X will give you what you seek" because there are so many other factors involved.
 
mcr--no problem at all. Just wanted to be clear. Everytime I post, I have about ten thoughts running simultaneously and I'm never sure that I got to the bottom of it all!
 
I know when I'm wrong and I'm all wrong here.

I leave you all to use $200 pre's and wish you all happiness and enjoyment in there use.

May you all get 12 ART pre's for your next birthday.

I'll continue to use a SSL mixer and $2000 pres ranging from API to Neve to western electric to RCA and others and suffer all day through...... :(
I'm stuck with the Neumann tube mics and Pultec EQ's a Focusrite and API compressor and some shity Quad 8 EQ I ripped out of some old cheap mixer.....
I'm fucked ...... If I only had a chineese mic...I might have been able to get some recording done instead of seeing all these phsycodelic colors ...(or is the lunch I just eat :eek:))


As for Eddie....... although a true asset to this site in his knowledge, trust me my dear friends..... he would drop his ART in the garbage for a good Neve pre. Now all of you watch carefully as he will try to tell you otherwise but don't close your eyes and don't listen to his fairy tales as he tries to charm you. Don't look into that glass eye he shakes in front of your eyes.......


On a more personal note to Eddie - I have something I wanted to post for you to see but it will have to wait untill next week. Tune in again next week :).
 
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