Mic ideas for small group video discussion?

  • Thread starter Thread starter xyster
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XLR might offer the best results. Shielding for bad house wiring, you are running a lot of Watts down there. Radio towers, cell towers, first responders, and other interference that can plague you if you run on 3.5mm plugs. If you're in the country off of a dirt farm road, perhaps not an issue. Much, although truckers with the ham radio equivalent rigging... Better off not needing a do over IMO. You could always get a beachtek or juiced link type preamp to feed a 3.5mm (1/8") plug. Or just run the headphone out to the camcorders from the field recorder / headphone preamp / rack whatevers.
 
Most lavs if purchased from reputable dealers have the option of how you want them to be terminated. You just tell them XLR. if not an afternoon with wire cutters and.............



:cool:
 
moresound: your right. countryman charges $50 more for the hardwired XLR connector, compared to the $20 extra for nearly anything else but bare. Going bare would save me $200 if I bought 4 of em. gah. Do I trust my wiring skills tho? Curious tho, if i bought a used Lav mic designed for a particular wireless transmitter, would changing the connector to a XLR by hand cause any problems for use with standard phantom power? I dont understand the transmitter compability listings of lav mics yet, outside of different plug types..

I found this article online that seems to indicate that doing both, boom and lav mics, as the best choice - but, Boom is the right choice for indoors nearly always. I know a couple of you already voiced a similar opinion in this thread - so thank you.
http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?t=79324

(despite that, podcast shows like geekbrief tv use a lav mic - the countryman B6 for example [$430] - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xm2bcmlvGv4 ,sounds *okay*, sometimes.)

After looking around at lav mics, I don't think I can afford any of the decent ones - $500 per lav mic x 4 = pain. I might buy a couple cheap AT35s lavs for fun tho, just in case I need them, but it seems Boom is the most liked choice. I wish I could still afford to do both boom and lav...

anyways, XLR is my choice for the connector type, I believe. USB is out of the question as USB cables don't like being very long and lack versatility; while 3.5mm would cause too much noise. I still am considering some type of high-end field recorder as a boom mic though, which wouldnt then need a connector (probably a bad idea).

Booming introduces some problems/questions though,
-Would I need more than one Boom mic to cover 4 people at the table?
-If I decided to hang multiple mics from the ceiling, how likely will I be faced with unresolvable phase issues? I'm not sure I can abide by the 3:1 rule...
-If someone stands up, speaks louder than others, or speaks off-axis, how likely will I run into audio problems with a hanging boom mic? Are there any mic choices that would best be suited to counter those problems if they arise?

You have already provided me with some great suggestions for room/boom mics, such as the AT4050. Would a mic like the classic Electrovoice RE20 be at all useful to me? I'm going to need to make a purchase soon, so I'm just looking for last minute advice here. I'm pretty sure Im going to go with a boom mic, and only then buy good lav mics if I run into problems....

thanks..

:)
 
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Dude PM me your cell # I'll talk to you faster than I type with all these answers correctly so as you can understand.



:cool:
 
I discovered a couple resources online talking about Lav mics that might be very useful for anyone else looking for a high-end lav mic.

http://www.locationsound.com/proaudio/ls/tips/techtips8_4.html
This link lists and describes several popular high end lav mics, and includes a description of where they might be used in the pro industry.

http://www.kenstone.net/fcp_homepage/lavs_brockett.html#Test #1
This link is amazing for someone looking for a lav mic, for the purpose of interviews, as it provides voice samples of a dozen or more lav mics. It also goes on to review them each a bit. Some sound nice, .. and then some don't. cool.
 
I didn't read every answer, but mine is:

A lav for each person, hook 'em into a cheap 4-channel mixer, and take the output to your cameras.
Do a soundcheck to ballpark the voices for the mixer and set levels conservatively on the cameras.
You can feed both cameras with the mixer. Everybody is happy in the edit (one hopes :o)

Lavs are the least troublesome and most forgiving; there is nothing like trying to get rid of room/table noise afterwards because you used table- or hanging mics.


C.
 
Thanks for your input, Cosmic. I have gotten a lot of mixed signals by people, which has made things.. interesting for me.

I think I have decided to buy both an AT4050 LDC mic and 2 or 3 Sanken Cos-11 lav mics. It's not a cheap solution, far more than what I wanted to spend, but there doesn't seem to be an ideal solution for me. I might as well take the middle ground of the solutions provided to me and see what works best. I figure I can always sell off anything I dont use for a relatively small loss.

I never thought I would be criticizing $400+ microphones, but both the AT4050 and Cos11, legends in their respective uses it seems, both don't meet my demands as I had hoped initially. The Cos11 still sounds like a lav mic, although I can adjust the EQ a bit I believe to fix that. On the other hand, the AT4050 offers a very nice sensual sound for female voices, which most of the time will be great, but I think male voices and a few perky female voices might not translate the way I want exactly. But, that's just me being picky without actually trying them out yet in person -- both of these mics I'm sure will meet my requirements and then some.

I'm hoping to find these mics used and for a good price. If I could afford an extra AT4050 and some extra Cos11's, that would be great too, since I could then do stereo room recordings and a proper 4-channel discussions, but cest la vie.

If anyone has any last minute criticism of my decision (cheaper, but equal effective solutions?), I would love to hear it.

Also, in my search to find a Cos11 lav mic, I have come across the opportunity to buy 3 of these mics for ~$300 each -- which I am strongly considering. I have a problem however. They are all bare-wired, lacking connectors, and I think they are designed for Lemo/Zaxcom connectors(?), but I want to attach XLR-3M connectors to them instead. From the Sanken website, the only bare-wired Cos11s they sell are 10-volt (?) versions, while the only Cos11s they sell that come with XLR-connectors use 12V-48V phantom power.

Simply, if I buy connector-less 10V Cos-11 lav mics, can I attach an XLR-connector and hook them up via Phantom power? with no adverse effects...
spec sheet: http://www.sanken-mic.com/en/product/spec.cfm/5.1105900

(
 
The 4050 should be nice. That or a KSM44 will likely be my next LDC purchase. You can always edit in post to taste if it's not your cup of tea. Don't feel bad about criticizing expensive mics, there's some really expensive ones that get dogged pretty bad all the time. But they get used because they solve a problem that others are unable to solve. Or because the brand sells the gig or puts the artist at ease about the situation.

If this isn't something that you'll be doing enough to justify the costs, you might consider renting the higher end gear. I tend to like owning, it lets me practice, and I live far enough in the sticks to make it more economical, even though my gear doesn't see enough use to justify the expense.
 
I just want to wish you good luck!

if a show has bad audio, I tend to ignore it but if it has great audio and poor video, I look beyond that and stay with the show/interview.

the 3d thing is coming to us but I'm not that interested in it so good luck with that since its pretty new and seems real complicated and expensive.

peace,
sean
 
xyster said:
Also, in my search to find a Cos11 lav mic, I have come across the opportunity to buy 3 of these mics for ~$300 each -- which I am strongly considering. I have a problem however. They are all bare-wired, lacking connectors, and I think they are designed for Lemo/Zaxcom connectors(?), but I want to attach XLR-3M connectors to them instead. From the Sanken website, the only bare-wired Cos11s they sell are 10-volt (?) versions, while the only Cos11s they sell that come with XLR-connectors use 12V-48V phantom power.

Simply, if I buy connector-less 10V Cos-11 lav mics, can I attach an XLR-connector and hook them up via Phantom power? with no adverse effects...
spec sheet: http://www.sanken-mic.com/en/product/spec.cfm/5.1105900
Click to expand...

Uh, no, if you want to use phantom power, you need to use their phantom adaptor.
 
mshilarious: While it sucks to hear that I would need a special adapter to get those mics to work, I very much appreciate finally having an answer. - so thank you! I can rest at ease finally knowing that I can pass on that deal. It will cost me about $1500 to buy the proper XLR versions new however, which stings.... a lot. Gez, I wonder what type of profit margins these types of companies make on this stuff.

RastaSean: hey, thanks a lot! It means a lot to me. Sometimes I think I'm a bit crazy to be blowing all my savings on an idea like this studio, but life would be pretty boring if I didnt take risks now and then.
Yeah, i hear ya about the audio quality being vital. I agree.
I'm a bit ahead of the consumer demand curve with this 3D thing I think, but when mainstream 3D production tools get released over the next year, I expect to see a lot more of it on Youtube and elsewhere. Trying to be a pioneer at the moment in this field is a bit tricky, but its been fun! I've spent 6 months on this project so far, and I'm over budget and far past my initial dead line . gah. learning is a slow process.

Shadow_7: I've never been one to like renting stuff, even if it makes more sense. I'm kinda a pack rat when it comes to useful tools and such anyways, so I would probably keep them for decades after buying them. I'm sure they will come in use to me again at some point. I have one friend who wants to do a film short sometime with me too, so I could use them there as well.

thanks everyone! Now I just need to swallow the bullet and open my wallet to the evils of pro audio.
 
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Sorry, I can't seem to stop thinking about those inexpensive bare-wired Sanken Lav mics I saw... buying them might save me a ton of cash.

I found this thread online that discusses my problem with them a bit (found it once I was told i was missing an adapter ^ ), although I'm not exactly sure I understand it all.

http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/all-things-audio/474367-lav-connector-xlr-wireless-use.html

* The Sanken power module with XLR is a pigtail unit.
* The COS-11D with TA5 is wired to be single ended for use with Lectrosonics gear. This wiring is not recommended for their XLR power modules (balanced vs unbalanced)
* Sanken recommends a TA3 (mini XLR) connector wired for a balanced operation as the intermediate connection.
Click to expand...

I 'designed' a basic circuit that I thought might be able to convert the bare-wired Cos 11s to a simple XLR connector. It uses a resistor to reduce the voltage to a reasonable level per line (or just one line?). I dunno if I need a capacitor or not either, but whatever.

lavmic.jpg


Would something like this work just fine? No noise problems, burn outs, impedance problems? I can always add a couple zener diodes in for some extra voltage safety.

Lastly, I really have no clue at all if all Sanken Cos-11D mics are the same when stripped bare at the connector end. Do the mics themselves vary in voltage requirements, or are they all 10V and just use a voltage divider built into the connector on the XLR versions? The listed mics for sale, which are bare wired, have no specs listed at all. I'm not even sure if they are red-dot (low sensitivity) or not. Does that matter?

I have no problem making a few little shielded boxes as intermediary adapters for some bare-wired lav mic to XLR connectors if it will save me $500 bucks.

Thank you everyone, yet again.

:)


---------
update:

conversely, could I also do this?

Wire the lav mic up to a mini-XLR connector ( such as this Audix connector ) and then just buy an Audix APS-910 In line XLR phantom Power Adapter for $30? ( Link to info )

If I did it this way, I could also potentially use the mics for other wireless applications in the future without needing to re-wire.

I don't know if it would work tho, and I dont know yet if it matters if I got the red-dot version of the Cos11 or not. Any thoughts? :) thank you.
 
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Stuff like that can be very problematic if you do on location work. If you didn't load some box when you left home, or if the airline lost it, or if you came in someone elses car from the hotel, you're suddenly without functionality, even though you have most of what you need.

If you can get by with functionality over quality, there's several cheap lavs out there. Which you might want to pick up anyway, in case you have a larger than expected turnout that need mics. Or something breaks. Or you have a source that you don't really want to trust with your expensive mic.

BTW, if you go used and wireless be aware that certain bandwidths have been reallocated.
 
Shadow_7: I took your advice and bought a couple old cheap sony ECM-77B XLR/battery lav mics for $100/each. I still intend to buy a couple Cos11s, but i lost the ebay bid for the cheap ones just now. :(:(:( Apparently my ~$250 max bid was laughable. More than $300 wouldn't make sense though, since i can buy them new, also with no connectors but at least with all the accessories, for just a bit more. Back to the hunt I guess...

I also bought a Mackie Onyx 1220 (non-i), for $300 locally. I figure I can always buy better pre-amps later if needed, but having a decent mixer/eq will be fun-- er... I mean useful during live broadcasts. There is a well used AT4050 LDC for $400 up for offer locally too, but I'm hesitant to buy it at that price. Lastly, I still need to buy a decent audio interface. There is a used Delta 1010lt card for sale for $150, but again, I'm hesitant... cause I'm a cheap bastard.

mshilarious: THANK you! lol. thats perrrrfect! I looked and couldnt find anything near as awesome as that resource. thank you - that should make buying non-XLR lav mics a lot easier to swallow for me.

You are all making this venture into semi-pro-audio for me a whole lot painless and more affordable than when I first started. thx. :)
 
I have it's smaller cousin the Delta 44 on my desktop. Respectable, but not really high end. Probably lower middle class if I had to qualify it. Nice house in a nice neighborhood, but your neighbor probably isn't a doctor. I got mine for $100 BITD. But that was before I knew what cables and stuff were and that I'd need a mic preamp and a headphone preamp just to use it with my $10 mic and $15 headphones. And $200-ish in various cables and adapters. Since I had none of that at that time. Welcome to the money pit.
 
do you have a better recommendation instead of the delta series for that price range? The PreSonus FireStudio Mobile looks nice, but at it's price it might of made more sense to get that instead of buying the oynx mixer then...

Well, I will first try getting my new-old mackie oynx firewire i/o card working- the nice guy who sold me the mackie mixer today said the firewire card it had didn't work, but he knew someone who could fix it for cheap. Since it wasn't working, it was essentially just a free perk that came with the mixer. Dunno though.

anyways, thanks for all the great advice and expertise. Its great to learn from other's mistakes than make the same mistakes myself as well. :P
 
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It's a good card, don't get me wrong. About the only issue I've had with my Delta 44 is that it wasn't able to drive my studio monitors like other devices could. The EQ output from it with relation to those monitors was skewed. Throwing in a headphone preamp with active attenuation between it and the monitors helped a little. But relative to running those same monitors with the same media file played through my Korg MR-1000. A world of difference.

Near what it'll cost (with accessories) and probably more towards your goals, presonus firepod (firebox, or whatever they're calling it this week), Echo Layla 3G, and a few others. Depends on what features you want/need. Laptop / Desktop? Preamps? Midi? Multiple headphone outs and/or line outs? (one for the camera, one for you, one for each on the panel). Adat, SPDIF, world clock, ??? If you don't need all that, then the delta series is a good choice. If you do, you might be setting yourself up for a lot of frustration. Granted that the 1010 is bit beefier than 44 or 66. But it still appears to be sans preamps, which can cost a pretty penny.
 
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