Maybe the dumbest questions ever...

[Monkey Allen]

I record acoustic guitar and singing...that's about it for audio...the rest I do with midi...anyway...so here is a list of questions:

1. When I apply compressors, limiters, multiband, equalizers, gates..etc on my voice or on my acoustic guitar....blow me if I don't have to go to an extreme when I fiddle with the plugin's knobs to perceive any change to the sound...basically I can get my acoustic to sound boomy and dull OR tinny and telephoney...so...what's the go with that? I often hear people saying to just do this or that a little bit a little bit there...but I do a little bit and I can tell no difference at all. I have to really crank the knobs one way or the other. Are acoustic instruments, like the acoustic guitar, less likely to be manipulated through such plugins?

2. Say you have worked out a midi bass line and you mix down and make it audio...is there anything you typically do to that track to make it smoother so that it sounds slightly more natural?

3. I have 3 microphones...MXL SP1, the CAD m177 and a matched set of Behringer C2's....all different mics (well all condensers)...but F me if they don't just sound exactly the same to me. My acuostic (I have a Taylor 110 and a Martin DX1...so they aren't exactly shit guitars) still sounds shitty. Are my ears, recording techniques/ room/ playing style etc just shit?

Usually I put reverb on my voice and that seems to work ok...but as for everything else it seems that I just aim a microphone at it and record it and end up leaving it as it is. I feel like I want to twiddle with a few knobs (No hecklers please) but I suppose I am pretty clueless about all that frequency chart theory etc.

Anyway, I am annoyed a bit that my recordings still sound like shit when I have the gear to make them sound better..but don't know what to do.

thanks for any comments

 

[Erockrazor]

I record acoustic guitar and singing...that's about it for audio...the rest I do with midi...anyway...so here is a list of questions:

1. When I apply compressors, limiters, multiband, equalizers, gates..etc on my voice or on my acoustic guitar....blow me if I don't have to go to an extreme when I fiddle with the plugin's knobs to perceive any change to the sound...basically I can get my acoustic to sound boomy and dull OR tinny and telephoney...so...what's the go with that? I often hear people saying to just do this or that a little bit a little bit there...but I do a little bit and I can tell no difference at all. I have to really crank the knobs one way or the other. Are acoustic instruments, like the acoustic guitar, less likely to be manipulated through such plugins?

2. Say you have worked out a midi bass line and you mix down and make it audio...is there anything you typically do to that track to make it smoother so that it sounds slightly more natural?

3. I have 3 microphones...MXL SP1, the CAD m177 and a matched set of Behringer C2's....all different mics (well all condensers)...but F me if they don't just sound exactly the same to me. My acuostic (I have a Taylor 110 and a Martin DX1...so they aren't exactly shit guitars) still sounds shitty. Are my ears, recording techniques/ room/ playing style etc just shit?

Usually I put reverb on my voice and that seems to work ok...but as for everything else it seems that I just aim a microphone at it and record it and end up leaving it as it is. I feel like I want to twiddle with a few knobs (No hecklers please) but I suppose I am pretty clueless about all that frequency chart theory etc.

Anyway, I am annoyed a bit that my recordings still sound like shit when I have the gear to make them sound better..but don't know what to do.

thanks for any comments

For number 1, maybe we both don't have golden ears like others may but those little adjustments are often barely audible to me as well. I am usually pretty radical with my effects, be that a good thing or a bad thing. To answer .. I'm not sure if an instrument being acoustic has any effect on the .. effects effect but I would like to assume it's the same. I often feel the same. Like when people say, "give a 2db bump on 3kh".. I'll do 6db and start to hear it. I do believe that your monitoring system does play a big role in the perception of these changes though. I have decent monitors in a horrible room, that's my excuse.

For number 2, I would give it room sound maybe and lessen the quantization. Giving it more swing should help if you don't do that already. This is a hard question for me to answer well though. Probably would have a lot to do with how realistic your midi sound is though.

For number 3, I think that I would refer back to number 1 and say ... These changes are less easily noticed because of your monitoring situation. Your mic's will sound very similar because they are all in the same room on the same thing. And if you can't hear a 3db change on your monitoring system, youre not going to hear the bumps and dips in your microphones EQ curve.

I feel more comfortable answering these question's where I show a little bit of unconfidence in the newbie forum .. i think that helps.

Either we have shit ears Monkey Allen, or we're just not on the best systems. I should finish by saying ... even though we dont have the best listening systems, we do make the best of what we have and realize we won't be working in optimal environments. But to our aid, I think even in a crappy environment, I have been able to get better at hearing less incremental differences. I can hear more subtleties in compression and more subtleties in EQ. I have now been listening for these things for 3 years now though. Maybe my minds just playing tricks on me. And maybe I do have doodoo ears. Hopefully I've helped in one way or another.

Good luck, Eric.

 

[Erockrazor]

Furthermore, for your recording debacles... My acoustic guitar sound was never too satisfying to me until i gave it a generous high end (like 3kh to infinity! kh) boost (I think they call that a high shelf). I then liked the sound a lot lot more. It resembled closer the sounds that I wished I could get. The pick sound was a lot more percussive and the clarity was better. But when I boosted too far I began to lose the tone of the guitar.

For my vocals, I have gotten much happier by compressing more than most people would recommend AND moving my microphone farther away. Now I try to record my vocals around 2 or 3 feet away instead of right up on my pop filter. This also benefited from a high end boost but not as dramatic as guitars for me.

And I should note, that these are things that worked for me. Maybe this won't be the answers you're looking for but I'm confident that you will find something that does. I am ready to be at the butt end of the "newb's love high end EQ, its newbish as hell!" jokes but whatever. It works for my ears and I'm the one making the recording.

Once again, good luck, Eric G.

 

[Monkey Allen]

Hey Eric...I like your thoughts mate...don't you find that by boosting the acoustic guitar in that range that you get a lot of (how can I say it?) artifacts or a lot of high frequency 'chhhhhh'? Also...what do you mean by 'lessen the quantization'?

Also...again...I have to admit that with compressors all I ever hear is an increase in volume....for my ears I get the same result by turning up the tracks gain/trim button. Again though....I am totally admitting to being a noob here...I'm not pretending to know a thing.

Also I am trying to come to terms with the recommended frequency charts you see around....the ones that say 'cut the shit out of the upper bass freq for bass guitar and also cut anything under 'x'...'. As a matter of fact I did this to a midi bass I converted to audio last night and did notice the result....which was a lot more clarity...not so much boom and mud (I guess boom and mud are the words). I was left with an eq line that was like an upside down 'U' at somewhere around 100hz. (I think it was 'hz'...the bass freq's anyway).

I use M-Audio Bx5's for monitors...not great but not shit either. You can tune them/ set them up for maximum attunement for your room...but I haven't been smart enough to be able to do that so I have just left them on default.

Anyway, thanks again...if you have any more tips....feel free to post 'em.

 

[Erockrazor]

By "less quantization" I mean more swing. The midi notes wont land directly on the grid. Human musicians don't play music directly on grid. Some are closer than others but none are that precise. Swing is a word that can be used to describe how "loose" the playing is. There are ways to alter how close your midi notes are to the grid value but how exactly depends on your software. You could always improvise by slipping the notes almost onto the line but a bit off and experiment with that.

For acoustic I think I can get a lot of that "chh" but to my ears, I dont go that far. An important thought for consideration may be what exactly you and I are recording. I may be recording a dark/duller sounding acoustic, in a room where hf reflections are low, with a heavy pick that doesn't make much pick noise, and a not so bright condenser. You may be recording a bright guitar with a bright condenser, in a live room, with a light pick. And these are probably the more basic variables in this equation. Not to mention our ears do hear different things.

When using compression try this for learning purposes. Turn up the ratio high like 40:1. Now start playing with the attack and release settings. This for me makes the adjustments easier to hear. Or at least that's what I tell myself. I have begun hearing more than just volume changes but attack and dynamic changes. If that's what you mean by "volume" and you're saying that you don't hear the coloration that compressors can put on a recording, I'm pretty with you. Some of my plug-in's I like to think that one feels a little more pleasant than another but I could never really pinpoint the coloration if there is much at all?

I've had times where I doubt my abilities to do this well. But at the same time I try to stay confident and tell myself that I do have good ears and a lot of learning to do. Sometimes I feel like I'm into recording just to document and place,time, and song. But I think I'm capable of something more than that. Whether you call it "art" or "sonic balance" or "good engineering", I hope I may one day be capable of something along those lines.

 

[jarrydee]

I ahve the same problem with hearing the difference between things and I KNOW it has alot to do with the room....I know if I treat my room I will be able to here all those little differences..but I just dont have the doe to do it!!!

Any way ...treat your room and the sound will follow!!

 

[tojo]

Yeah def. see what you can do about room treatment. as for the behringer c-2s... how are they treating you? I have some and they do the trick on acoustic guitar. When you mic yr guitar where do you put the mics and how far back etc... do you pan then / record on a stereo track

 

[tateros]

1. When I apply compressors, limiters, multiband, equalizers, gates..etc on my voice or on my acoustic guitar....blow me if I don't have to go to an extreme when I fiddle with the plugin's knobs to perceive any change to the sound...

Anyway, I am annoyed a bit that my recordings still sound like shit when I have the gear to make them sound better..but don't know what to do.

thanks for any comments

The processes you mentioned are effects that the masses for the most part don't know they are hearing.

One of the scariest statements I've heard is that sometimes the best effects are the ones that you don't really hear, which made me realize how much of an obstacle, or talent it truly is to record something worth listening to.

So my answer to you depends on what products you're using. If you have good quality products, the answer is simple. You have to be patient & learn about the products you have, one piece at a time.

If you have crap in your recording chain, especially the preamp/mic/you're environment, then there is your problem.

I used to have a crappy channel strip & mic, which led me to the same predicament you're in. I could never make anything sound right & I really had to pan everything from one end to the next to make it sound different, yet hardly ever better.

Now that I have a better recording chain, I realize that my problem was that I was trying to mend my crappy recordings with VST effects. This resulted in piling on noise suppression over a de-esser, over EQ, over mic modeler & finally reverb. It was ridiculous & although it sounded okay, I had to go through hell to make it happen.

Now I can just set my chain up, which simply consists of a mic preamp, a well positioned mic in Cardoid mode only (as to minimize capturing my untreated room) & a compressor. It sounds awesome from the beginning & I don't have to add anything later.

I would suggest a mic that is cardoid, or even hypercardoid if your room is untreated. I also have 4x4' walls of moving blankets around me. They do nothing for the screaming kids out on the street, but they do take away some room reverb.

I would still like to add a hypercardoid capable mic (AKG 414) to minimize room reverb & make my chain strictly digital immediately after my voice hits the preamp in order to minimize noise (Grace Lunatec V3), but that's going to take time. And by time I mean money.

Good luck!

 

[JG96]

mabie you should replace some equipment behrenhiger is known to make cheep rip-offs you might want some better monitors and mabie try a better micing tecnique

 

[tateros]

try a better micing tecnique

I had been led to believe for a long time that it was my mic'ing technique that needed work. But now I realize that my old mic made me sound like I was singing into a tin can when positioned 3 feet from me, and like I was singing into a megaphone when positioned closer.

Now with a better mic & preamp, it always sounds like me, except I never knew my voice could sound so clean, clear & sacchariny sweet. Positioning just makes me sound bassier, or breathier & the exact opposite when positioned further away. Yes, there are obviously bad mic'ing positions that will make you hear the room, but you can hear when that's happening & it's easy to change.

And besides, that's a far cry from trying to "work on my mic'ing technique" in the past, which used to mean trying to not make me sound like I was singing into a tin can, or out of a megaphone.

 

[Monkey Allen]

Yeah def. see what you can do about room treatment. as for the behringer c-2s... how are they treating you? I have some and they do the trick on acoustic guitar. When you mic yr guitar where do you put the mics and how far back etc... do you pan then / record on a stereo track

The Behringer C2's are...well I don't know...just like tateros says...to me it just sounds like I am recording into a tin can. There's so many things to consider...the pick I have been using is this bendy flimsy thing....maybe I need a more sturdy pick. I have zero room treatment...in fact right now I am recording basically in a Hong Kong hotel room.

I bought the MXL SP1 based on some gushing user reviews at various forums...but it sounds identical to (my ears) my CAD m177. I tested them side by side...no difference. Maybe I should post some examples....I have no examples from the Hong Kong hotel room yet...but here are som e songs I did in Australia...basically the first 5 or 6 (the rest of the songs were done ages ago with even crappier gear):

http://www.soundclick.com/bands/default.cfm?bandID=355705&content=music

The processes you mentioned are effects that the masses for the most part don't know they are hearing.

One of the scariest statements I've heard is that sometimes the best effects are the ones that you don't really hear, which made me realize how much of an obstacle, or talent it truly is to record something worth listening to.

So my answer to you depends on what products you're using. If you have good quality products, the answer is simple. You have to be patient & learn about the products you have, one piece at a time.

If you have crap in your recording chain, especially the preamp/mic/you're environment, then there is your problem.

I used to have a crappy channel strip & mic, which led me to the same predicament you're in. I could never make anything sound right & I really had to pan everything from one end to the next to make it sound different, yet hardly ever better.

Now that I have a better recording chain, I realize that my problem was that I was trying to mend my crappy recordings with VST effects. This resulted in piling on noise suppression over a de-esser, over EQ, over mic modeler & finally reverb. It was ridiculous & although it sounded okay, I had to go through hell to make it happen.

Now I can just set my chain up, which simply consists of a mic preamp, a well positioned mic in Cardoid mode only (as to minimize capturing my untreated room) & a compressor. It sounds awesome from the beginning & I don't have to add anything later.

I would suggest a mic that is cardoid, or even hypercardoid if your room is untreated. I also have 4x4' walls of moving blankets around me. They do nothing for the screaming kids out on the street, but they do take away some room reverb.

I would still like to add a hypercardoid capable mic (AKG 414) to minimize room reverb & make my chain strictly digital immediately after my voice hits the preamp in order to minimize noise (Grace Lunatec V3), but that's going to take time. And by time I mean money.

Good luck!

Yeah...well I'm in the market for a good quality preamp with good quality converters...anything to recommend in the $600-$1000 range? I will use it in conjunction with my Firebox. (just bypass the Firebox Preamps/ converters...so really just use the Firebox as the soundcard/ interface...not as the preamp.

mabie you should replace some equipment behrenhiger is known to make cheep rip-offs you might want some better monitors and mabie try a better micing tecnique

You think the M-Audio Bx5's are no good? I know they are not high end, but could you recommend something more suitable?

I had been led to believe for a long time that it was my mic'ing technique that needed work. But now I realize that my old mic made me sound like I was singing into a tin can when positioned 3 feet from me, and like I was singing into a megaphone when positioned closer.

Now with a better mic & preamp, it always sounds like me, except I never knew my voice could sound so clean, clear & sacchariny sweet. Positioning just makes me sound bassier, or breathier & the exact opposite when positioned further away. Yes, there are obviously bad mic'ing positions that will make you hear the room, but you can hear when that's happening & it's easy to change.

And besides, that's a far cry from trying to "work on my mic'ing technique" in the past, which used to mean trying to not make me sound like I was singing into a tin can, or out of a megaphone.

Man, your tin can comment is basically how I feel. Can you recommend a good quality preamp? I'm up for spending somewhere between $600-$1000.

thanks

 

[tateros]

Can you recommend a good quality preamp? I'm up for spending somewhere between $600-$1000.

thanks

I own the old, or "classic" Grace 101 and it is phenomenal. They can be had for around $350 from ebay, with a bit of patience. The great thing about the Grace is that it's so clean that it really lets the mics' characteristics shine through. I love putting a mic into it knowing that all of the personality I'm hearing is from the mic, without any preamp interference. I've read about clean mic preamps sounding too sterile & feared the Grace might fall into this boring doctors office category, but I haven't come across a mic with a good reputation that didn't have it's own, desireable personality when used with the Grace.

You're not going to find it for $600-1000, but If you want the next best thing with an A/D converter, at $1500 the Grace Lunatec V3 is basically 2 channels of Grace 101, with S/PDIF for pure, digital goodness.


Grace M101 (The new version of mine)
http://www.gracedesign.com/products/m101/m101.htm

Grace 101
http://www.mojopie.com/grace101.html

Lunatec V3
http://www.gracedesign.com/products/V3/lunatecV3.htm

 

[tateros]

Man, your tin can comment is basically how I feel. Can you recommend a good quality preamp? I'm up for spending somewhere between $600-$1000.

thanks

Oh man, I almost forgot! If you are good with a soldering iron, you can head over to seventhcircleaudio.com & grab a complete Do It Yourself kit. For $490 (you get a $287 discount for buying the full kit), you can get a C84 module, which is modeled after the Millenia preamp and has been compared to the clean characteristics of the Grace 101, a chassis to put it in, a PS03 power supply & a wire harness to hook it all up.

There are other preamps to choose from, like the N72 ($329), which is modeled after the Neve 1272 or the J99, which is modeled after a John Hardy. You can also grab a DI module for $79, so you can hook up your 1/4" jack instruments.

Awesome!

I will eventually get one for sure, but considering we're on the verge of The Great Depression v2.0, I'm going to sit tight for a bit.

 

[tojo]

The Behringer C2's are...well I don't know...just like tateros says...to me it just sounds like I am recording into a tin can. There's so many things to consider...the pick I have been using is this bendy flimsy thing....maybe I need a more sturdy pick. I have zero room treatment...in fact right now I am recording basically in a Hong Kong hotel room.

thanks

well the stuff on your soundclick page sounds good, but maybe you didn't use the c-2s? If you have a sample of your c-2s on acoustic guitar, I would love to hear it and see how it compares to mine?

 

[Monkey Allen]

Thanks tateros...I think I'm going with the ART MPA Gold...

Hey tojo...you're right...I don't think I used the C2's for anything on my sc page. I have just used those for a bit of mucking around. Maybe one track is done with them somewhere.

Maybe yuo can post a sample of yuor C2 sound...?

I'll try to post something up when I can.

 

[tojo]

yea sure, I'll try to post a track. I actually recorded an acoustic version of one of my songs, absolutely everything was done with the c-2s including vocals, at least i think they were... but anyways I wanted to see how it sounded... where's a good place to upload and post an mp3 without having to make an account?

 

[tateros]

Thanks tateros...I think I'm going with the ART MPA Gold...

An ART?

Wow, how sad. Oh well. Live and learn, I guess.

Good luck!

 

[Erockrazor]

An ART?

Wow, how sad. Oh well. Live and learn, I guess.

Good luck!

Never used one but it shouldnt be too sad? I cant vouch for the MPA but if that's an excuse for a recording that sucks, it's a bad excuse.

 

[Erockrazor]

. where's a good place to upload and post an mp3 without having to make an account?

www.lightningmp3.com

A guy from this forum actually runs it and it's great.

 

[tateros]

Never used one but it shouldnt be too sad? I cant vouch for the MPA but if that's an excuse for a recording that sucks, it's a bad excuse.

My problem isn't that it's going to make bad recordings, my problem is that the preamp is colored. If he is going with just one preamp, he should pick something transparent. Then if he would so feel the need, add the MP as a secondary pre to bring out the personality of a specific layer.

Even still, if he'd rather choose something with personality, it should be something with a little more class, like an RNP or Grace.