Masterlink

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Well majormid, it's like this:

My situation is that I track to 2 ADAT-XTs though the stock A/D converters (@ +4dBu w/Monster Cable) and a Tascam TSR-8. I mixdown through the ADAT-XTs' stock D/A converters (@ +4dBu w/ Monster Cable) and the TSR-8, through a Soundcraft 200B console to either a Fostex M-20 1/4" open-reel @ 15ips w/o N/R using GP9 @ 400 nWb/m = 0 VU and then to an HHB 850 through the stock A/D converters or just straight to the 850 through the stock A/D converters. What's more is that I'm just getting started on a huge project of building a analog 2" 24-track open-reel for my studio.

That said, I really encourage my clients to have their mastering done elsewhere since I have next to no experience in that area where I could feel comfortable saying "I do mastering." So, I need 24-bit storage.

However, I do want to do simple edits for/and track arrangement for my clients who will not have their final products mastered. So, I need a 24-bit wordlength until I burn it to a 16-bit CD-R, so I need a good 24-bit to 16-bit dither algorithm

I could easily use a computer and do all I want for my applications, but the thing is that a computer is my last resort; because I want "hands-on"; but I will go to my last resort eventually, if I have to.

Oh man doesn't the Masterlink seem to be perfect for me! Maybe it is. Does it have the quality I'm looking for? Maybe it does. I don't know. Apogee converters was just my way of saying I need that kind of quality converters (mainly the A/D converters) since I know the quality of Apogee converters. Does it have to be Apogee? No. But I need that high of quality. Does the Masterlink have that high of quality converters? I wish I knew because I'd snatch it up in a heartbeat if that were the case.

I'm not so worried about the dither alogrithm as I am of the converters since I'll sending clients' 24-bit medium elsewhere for mastering. Although I really love Apogee's UV22... That'd be such a sweet little "plus".
 
I agree with JNP. An application manual would be useful. The compressor alone has nine different parameters to set. For us novices who aren't schooled in this yet, any help would be appreciated.
 
I've heard so many good thinkgs about the masterlink, so convince me (maybe this is one for majormid). I have a Roland VS-1680 now. Why do I need the Masterlink (besides the 24/96 thing)? I'm trying to justify this to my wife. . .

[This message has been edited by EricF (edited 06-07-2000).]
 
Ummm...majormid, now I will ask the really tough question here. If you can't answer this, please don't try to BS, as I sniff this stuff out pretty good... :)

You talk alot about the quality of the onboard DSP of the Masterlink. Yet, the box is $1300. In that price, we have 24/96 converters, a hard drive, a CD burner with this "new" technology that burns 24/96 files onto the CDR (which last I heard, my Sony Speeza could do too, if I have .wav files on my hard drive that are 24/96, which I COULD do with my Lynx One soundcard with an external converter, and, use Wavelab to record it).

Now, converters are a mute point here. The masterlink will prove itself in the converter department over time. They MAY of MAY NOT be anywhere as good as Apogee's.

But, this is the tough question, since this box is being pushed as a "all in one mastering tool" type thing.

What is the internal bit processing? I mean the real internal bit processing.

I know that many of the high end digital eq's and compressors work upwards of 50-72 bit internal bit processing, and deliver the goods, and a Weiss digital EQ runs what, about 3-4 grand?

Where did Alesis skimp to make a $1300 box that has everything one would need to master a CD? Last I heard, a friend of mine spent about $60k on equipment for a mastering facility ( www.freqmastering.com ) and I am having a hard time thinking that Alesis is making a $1300 box that is going to compete.

But mainly, I am very interested in the internal bit processing of the DSP on the Masterlink. I have already heard the hack job that Wavelab, with Waves and Steinberg plug's do at 24 bit fixed point processing, and it is decent, but only for demo level stuff. Scuttlebutt has it that software advertising 32 bit floating point processing is about the same as 24 bit fixed, so no advantage there.

But I really want to know the REAL internal bit processing of the Masterlink.

I have other questions, but will wait until this is cleared up.

I will admit that I have become skeptical of Alesis products since I bought that bunk ADAT PCI card last summer, and have a few other studio owners that I converse with that have had many problems with their XT-20's.

Is Alesis heading downhill even more with a box that "does it all", and won't deliver?

Respectfully

Ed Rei
Alesis Forum Moderator www.echostarstudio.com
ed_rei@echostarstudio.com
 
Yes, I've wondered that myself as well. Hmmm, I bet not many people consider that when they're looking into digital boards either.
 
Not at all RE. Why do you think so many people are going for those cheapy Tascam consoles and stuff.

Internal bit precision is the tell all of any DAW. It is not enough to have 24 bit converters, and even 24 bit internal processing. 24 bit internal processing is just not up to the task of keeping the audio pristine. Good digital devices will have internal processing precision of at least 48 bits (fixed) and can go as high as 72 bits (fixed).

I refer of course to Bob Katz article "More bits please" on www.digido.com . I am very interested in knowing if an Alesis rep even knows for sure just what the internal precision of the DSP on the Masterlink is.

I tell ya, if it not at least 48 bit, you could put together a better mastering solution with a computer using a $500 sound card, Wavelabs, and the Steirberg plugin's. Cost you about the same, and would have many other benefits.

majormid?

Ed
 
I have $1kUS coming my way, unexpectingly, in about 2 months which I will be dedicating to upgrading my computer a little and setting it up for my explained applications; I'm sure I'll go out of pocket as well when I actually get down to it.

That is unless someone can change my mind...

Gee, I wonder how that Direct-X version of Apogee's UV22 which Steingberg is suppose to be distributing is coming along. Maybe I'll have to ask around again. Last time, I got a response from someone saying it was in Beta Testing and he was one of them. I wonder how far things have gone since then; that was quite awhile ago.
 
Hey RE. You said you need a 24 bit to 16 bit dithering plug. Why? If you are going to submit to a mastering house, why not just send a 24 bit/96KHz .wav file on a CDR?

You can score a Lynx One card for about $450. Use your Apogee for the A/D conversion. The Lynx will accept a 24/96 through it's digital in (AES/EBU). Although, I think you may like the converters on Lynx. They were independently evaluated, and found to be quite good. Will try to find that link.

You could use Wavelab to record it (it records 24/96). Do some edits. Just don't process.

To save a 24/96 file, you just author the CDR as a Data CD, instead of a Audio CD. Easy.

This way, the mastering house can just import the .wav file into their system and do their thing.

I think you would enjoy a more robust, easy to use, and better user interface then a stand alone box would give you. Plus, with an internal CDR burner, you can back up files, and also, with Wavelabs, you can at least make some CDR's for clients that are pre-mastered. The dithering on Wavelab is decent enough for a disk that they can listen too. If you don't process the file in any way (compression or eq) you can just save a new copy of the .wav as a 16 bit .wav. It will be Truncate, but no big deal as the 8 least significant bits won't be missed too bad. If the 24 bit word length is preserved, Truncate is no big deal. But if you process the file in any way, truncate will be a bigger issue. In that case, you would want to apply the dithering. But Wavelab has a decent enough dithering scheme to apply for a clients "mix" CDR.

Ed

[This message has been edited by sonusman (edited 06-08-2000).]
 
Yes I'd like to use data files on CD-Rs @ 24/96 or even 24/48 to give to masters' but I'd also like to have a nice dithering algorithm here for my clients who don't go elsewhere for mastering but will still have a small 100-200 duplication run.

I'd like to read that article; I can deal with different if the quality is pretty near the same. Plus, I trust your judgement.

What's Wavelab going for now days; that's probably the way to go for editing?

Here's a question:
Isn't crossfading tracks to be done when dealing with PQ Subcodes? If so, then why is all that done in 16-bits?

I already have Sound Forge 4.5 and CD Architect as a plug-in for it (I got them for free); all 16-bits though. I've never even them.
 
I haven't got any complaint yet from clients RE about the Mastering in Wavelab. Most of my compliants are from myself! :) You know the story.... :D

I think you can look around and get a deal on Wavelab and plugs. People are looking to move this stuff, so you won't have to empty the bank to get it. Email me.

I think that PQ subcoding is done while the file is 16 bit mainly because you usually do any compression and eqing first, THEN deal with song arrangement. If I do a crossfade between two tracks, I open one, add the other for a crossfade, then set a market that defines the point that I want the authoring software to mark for the next track during the crossfade, then save the combined file under a new name. When I author the CD using Wavelab, it automatically see's the marker and makes the file into two files for the CD player. There is a Audio Montage mode too that more or less does this same thing but in a little different way. In any case, during a crossfade, you really don't need to worry too much about dithering because quantination errors tend to only be noticed when program material get's really quiet. Crossfades usually dont' get quiet enough to notice, so not that big of a deal. But, it this is still a concern, you can combine the two files like said above BEFORE you apply dithering (dithering in Wavelab can be applied at any point. Hell, you can apply to it several times if you like the veil it puts on the sound... :) ) then apply dithering to the combined file.

No matter how you stack it up, Wavelab does a pretty decent job as a editor and authoring package for mastering if PC is your platform. And, like I said, the processing is not total junk, just not up to par with killer analog processing, or the killer stand alone digital boxes that you would expect to see in a proper mastering suite. But hey, a lot of people have more tolorance for less then pristine sound then money, so they would probably be very happy with it... :)

Email me.

Ed

[This message has been edited by sonusman (edited 06-08-2000).]
 
Hey, where's majormid. This grand is burning a hole in my pocket. . .

[This message has been edited by EricF (edited 06-08-2000).]
 
FYI - I contacted an Alesis tech support guy who informed me that the DSP processing is 24 bit, and Alesis has no plans for multiband compressor software upgrade (my question).

That said, I'm still considering getting the MasterLink because 1) I record my own tunes and need to make CDs of them and 2) making music and music technology is a hobby of mine, not a business, and MasterLink appears to be a piece that can boost the quality of my recordings. $1300 is not that much in the long run.
 
Well actually bigfoot, it seems a little high for a product that only does internal bit precision at 24 bits. Plus, no multiband compressor? Bunk!!!

Lynx One card- $450
Wavelab- about $300
Waves plug in suite- about $400-500
CD burner- about $200

Total- $1300-$1400

Plus, you now have a visual interface to your editor, and can use it to create all sorts of other .wav files. Radio commercial production, etc....

Plus, some of the Waves plug in's DO do double sampling rate internal bit precision, which is equal to 48 bit processing, which blows away 24 bit processing.

Plus, you now can back up everything on your computer at any time because you have a CDR burner installed with the software to back up.

What don't you get? 96KHz on the A/D conversion.

But, I suspect that the Lynx card probably sounds at least as good, if not better then the Alesis converters, if Alesis's precedence in the A/D/A converter market tells me anything. They tend to use the cheapest chips available to keep product cost down. Lynx uses higher quality chips found in upper end A/D/A converters. The chips make a big difference in converter quality.

Plus, you ever try editing on a LCD screen before?

One other advantage for the Masterlink. It would be mobile.

So, I still think the computer with nice soundcard, and good established editing/mastering software is the way to go.

Another thing, how long did you wait on hold to talk to someone at Alesis? My average wait time has been 40 mins since they release that bunk ADAT PCI card. Have never had to call Steinberg because all their stuff works just fine. Lynx responded to my emails within 2 hours, and when I needed a replacement cable for my card, they sent it out THAT day, and overnighted it to me. They even refunded me for my postage cost to send the old cable back. Classy.

I think Alesis is just reinventing the wheel here, and not really making all that great of a wheel. It is easy to make a lot of claims that your product is a robust solution, but a whole other thing to back that up. A little research, and a careful look at what you really need in your studio should be what guides you in a purchase.

Maybe the Masterlink, at that price, IS what is needed in your situation. I can't say one way or another. But I can tell you that I did better for about the same price. But, maybe the route I went serves my needs better then it would yours.

Ed
 
RE -that sounds easy but if one doesn't have a newer PC and does not want to spend the time (and hassle) learning software and making everything compatible on a PC-based system, MasterLink may be the ticket.
 
Hello Ed and Group!

I'm sorry that I've not been around recently, but of course, my job requires quite a bit of travel. I'm just getting back from a "trip on the road". Let me try to answer here....

1. First of all, don't "threaten" me with the "don't BS because I can sniff out pretty good" line :) FYI, I was recording many years before becoming a rep and I know the ropes pretty well myself...that said...

the truth is, I had to contact Alesis support to find out the answer to your question. It is 24 bit processing. No excuses, it is what it is.

2. You pointed out that this is a $1300 machine. Once again, you're correct.
You asked where did we skimp...Well, the EQ isn't the best EQ in the world, the compressor is excellent, but maybe not the greatest in the world. There isn't a hook-up to your computer... My point is, that this box (which I personally bought for myself), is awesome for the money. You said "Last I heard, a friend of mine spent about $60k on equipment for a mastering facility and I am having a hard time thinking that Alesis is making a $1300 box that is going to compete." OK, but please read my diatribe below...

I'm not trying to be the "protector" of Alesis, but let me remind you what the company Alesis has done. Maybe some of your are old enough to remember when digital reverb was $2000+. Alesis blew the world away with excellent digital reverb for $399. What about when drum machines were $1500 and Alesis introduced a drum machine (HR:16) with real drum sounds for $499. Of course, we shouldn't forget that multi-track digital recording was available to anyone for oh, around $60,000. Adat...$4999...., Keyboards (some companies claimed that 32 voice machines was "as high as they could develop"). Alesis again with a 64 voice machine. Most companies followed within 6 months. Now the MasterLink... The actual truth is, (and I'm sure the Boo Birds will come out for this), but...Whether you support Alesis or not, they have helped everyone out. They brought the cost of recording down so the musician could do professional recording at home. I personally think that many products that are out today, would never have been introduced without the driving products that Alesis has presented.

Pleasedon't get me wrong. I'm speaking for myself, not for Alesis. I'm their rep and I know the people inside. These people are musicians, engineers, and dedicated professionals. If I didn't know them personally, I wouldn't say so. It just makes me a bit sad/mad when I hear folks slamming Alesis products that "brought down bridges" and gave all of us so much more to produce our dreams with. I might be so bold to suggest that Homerecording.com might not even be as popular without the kind of inovations that Alesis was directly responsible for.

I might add that there are Alesis products that I'm not especially fond of myself, but they all have some special "hook" in them. It takes reading the manual to recognize some of these things. I'll expand on some of those another time...

My last statements here (I promise!!), is that the comments that might seem to be attacking or directed toward Ed are most certainly not intended to be at all! I simply answered his question first. As a matter of fact, Ed was kind enough to e-mail me to let me know that a number of people were wanting to hear from me. I really appreciate the chance to talk to the many pros and soon to be pros in this forum.

I was surprised at the number of other posts that are on here. I'm going to try and answer everyone as best as I can. By the way, I'm not going to proof-read this, so my apologies for any mis-spelled words, etc.

Again, thanks everyone!!!

-glen
alesis rep...

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by sonusman:
Ummm...majormid, now I will ask the really tough question here. If you can't answer this, please don't try to BS, as I sniff this stuff out pretty good... :)

You talk alot about the quality of the onboard DSP of the Masterlink. Yet, the box is $1300. In that price, we have 24/96 converters, a hard drive, a CD burner with this "new" technology that burns 24/96 files onto the CDR (which last I heard, my Sony Speeza could do too, if I have .wav files on my hard drive that are 24/96, which I COULD do with my Lynx One soundcard with an external converter, and, use Wavelab to record it).

Now, converters are a mute point here. The masterlink will prove itself in the converter department over time. They MAY of MAY NOT be anywhere as good as Apogee's.

But, this is the tough question, since this box is being pushed as a "all in one mastering tool" type thing.

What is the internal bit processing? I mean the real internal bit processing.

I know that many of the high end digital eq's and compressors work upwards of 50-72 bit internal bit processing, and deliver the goods, and a Weiss digital EQ runs what, about 3-4 grand?

Where did Alesis skimp to make a $1300 box that has everything one would need to master a CD? Last I heard, a friend of mine spent about $60k on equipment for a mastering facility ( www.freqmastering.com ) and I am having a hard time thinking that Alesis is making a $1300 box that is going to compete.

But mainly, I am very interested in the internal bit processing of the DSP on the Masterlink. I have already heard the hack job that Wavelab, with Waves and Steinberg plug's do at 24 bit fixed point processing, and it is decent, but only for demo level stuff. Scuttlebutt has it that software advertising 32 bit floating point processing is about the same as 24 bit fixed, so no advantage there.

But I really want to know the REAL internal bit processing of the Masterlink.

I have other questions, but will wait until this is cleared up.

I will admit that I have become skeptical of Alesis products since I bought that bunk ADAT PCI card last summer, and have a few other studio owners that I converse with that have had many problems with their XT-20's.

Is Alesis heading downhill even more with a box that "does it all", and won't deliver?

Respectfully

Ed Rei
Alesis Forum Moderator www.echostarstudio.com
ed_rei@echostarstudio.com<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
 
Ahhhhhhhhhh...Well, then if easy, and not as robust is more important then quality to you, then the Masterlink is probably your ticket. Missing out on plug in's that work at 48 bit (fixed) internal precision processing is a whole other world from 24 bit (fixed). So really, it appears that the Masterlink is sort of a "lite" mastering tool when compared to something like Wavelab with the higher end plug in's. With that in mind, it won't find it's way into my studio any time soon as I am not looking to spend money on another low bit processing tool. With audio advancing in quality in the fashion it is, 24 bit precision processing is kind of lame, and at least to my ears, not worth the money, no matter how simple it is to use.

You don't need a DAW with totally killer specs to work with Wavelab and up to about 3 plugin's at one time on a stereo .wav file.

As far as ease of use though, I have never broke out the manual, the onscreen help is adequate, and I have found that the software is quite intuitive to how one would work in a mastering environment.

I really wanted to know how long you waited on the PHONE to talk to tech support at Alesis. I used to have to only wait no more then 5 mins, on a busy day for them. Since last summer though (about when the ADAT PCI card hit the market), the average wait time has been 40 mins or so with me. A couple times, I waited over 50 mins, and just hung up.

Ed
 
Hey majomid, thanks for the reply! Really.

The post above this one was in answer to the post before your's, just to let ya know... :)

Ahhhhh, it is so easy to misinterprete what is written eh? I only asked for the "non-BS" answer because it has been the answer I have been given too many times in the past by reps. Please excuse any inference that you may operate in this manner by me. Was not my intent.

On another note.....

Yes, Alesis has spearheaded many developements in the digital audio market. Release of their products in the past has certainly opened up a whole new world in "affordable" digital audio. Hey, I still have my Type I ADAT's in the studio as my main multitrack medium. I am mostly impressed with my old Q2. And I have found many good applications for my D-4 (mostly for kick drums) that have saved my bacon on many of mixes.

With that in mind though, I still cannot stand behind a 24 bit processing box at $1300. That would be a good solution for someone that doesn't already have a somewhat decent computer, but those of us who do (and it is a pretty good bet that almost all that are following this own a computer.. :) ) can get a better solution for the same money.

I value your comments on this though. I am sure that Masterlink will enjoy decent enough success (as most Alesis products do), as it is not by far the worst mastering solution out their. Looks to be about smack dab in the middle in the realm of things.

So, any chance Alesis is going to offer to take back those bunk ADAT PCI cards to use unfortunate enough to have bought one, and exchange it for something that works as advertised? And while on this ADAT PCI subject, when will it acutally support S/PDIF on the Toslink? And is a major Connect software upgrade planned? It would be a waste that I actually bought one of the first cards to come out (for $420!!!) and never had it working too well, if at all. Also, any plan for doubling staff at tech support so the phone waits won't be as long?

Here is the big question. Is Alesis in the works of a multitrack 24/96 solution like the Tascam unit that just hit the street?

Inquiring minds want to know.

Welcome aboard majormid.

Ed
 
Hi RE!

Thanks for the details. I really loved your quote: "I really encourage my clients to have their mastering done elsewhere since I have next to no experience in that area where I could feel comfortable saying "I do mastering." It really takes a pro to admit this!
The MasterLink in my opinion sounds wonderful, but the final analysis has to be yours. Do I think that the MasterLink means that the mastering process isn't necessary? Of course not! There are many things that a mastering lab can do that will help in many ways. But, the MasterLink allows you to help yourself quite a bit also. Keep in mind that many musicians are bypassing the mastering lab completely by just sending their DAT tape directly to the pressing plant. With that in mind, think about what you can do with the MasterLink, instead of relying upon the "house" engineer at the pressing plant.

1. You can sequence the order of your songs in just a few minutes. I'll bet that there are people on this BBS that have had songs incorrectly placed by CD plants.
2. You can determine the exact amount of time/space between tunes. You know, I believe that many songs are enhanced by a few extra seconds after a "serious" song...
3. You can fade in a tune and/or fade out a song. Lots of guys don't have fantastic mixers that properly close down to the last db, so the ending can sound too abrupt. MasterLink solves that problem.
4. How about normalizing? I mix on different days and sometimes songs aren't quite as loud as others...Do I really want somebody else to do that for me?
5. Let me mention backups of the original mixes. Send you DAT tape out and if they lose it, then you're toast. The cool thing is that Masterlink makes copies all day long to CD. You send a CD, already in order, with nice levels, etc. You can make copies of your DAT to CD of course, but nice things such as time between songs, levels, etc. aren't there...
and last (although there are many others)...
6. I get to experiment. CD-R's are about a buck apiece now-a-days. I have 16 playlists available on the MasterLink so I can re-sequence tunes, try a bit of 10K across the entire group of songs, experiment with compression, etc. Total cost for four different arrangements of my tunes: $5
So when, I do send my "final" out, there are things that won't be surprises later.

I don't think that MasterLink was ever made to replace the mastering lab, nor do I believe that having a Finalizer makes you a mastering engineer :) The simple fact is that it is another tool that allows "hand-on" work and yes, you can be very creative with it.

Once again, you have to try it. I think that a number of people have voiced their feelings about MasterLink here and most have been very positive. I agree with them because I'm using one, not because I'm the rep. A dog is always a dog, but the MasterLink is no dog!

thanks,
-glen
5. <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Recording Engineer:
Well majormid, it's like this:

My situation is that I track to 2 ADAT-XTs though the stock A/D converters (@ +4dBu w/Monster Cable) and a Tascam TSR-8. I mixdown through the ADAT-XTs' stock D/A converters (@ +4dBu w/ Monster Cable) and the TSR-8, through a Soundcraft 200B console to either a Fostex M-20 1/4" open-reel @ 15ips w/o N/R using GP9 @ 400 nWb/m = 0 VU and then to an HHB 850 through the stock A/D converters or just straight to the 850 through the stock A/D converters. What's more is that I'm just getting started on a huge project of building a analog 2" 24-track open-reel for my studio.

That said, I really encourage my clients to have their mastering done elsewhere since I have next to no experience in that area where I could feel comfortable saying "I do mastering." So, I need 24-bit storage.

However, I do want to do simple edits for/and track arrangement for my clients who will not have their final products mastered. So, I need a 24-bit wordlength until I burn it to a 16-bit CD-R, so I need a good 24-bit to 16-bit dither algorithm

I could easily use a computer and do all I want for my applications, but the thing is that a computer is my last resort; because I want "hands-on"; but I will go to my last resort eventually, if I have to.

Oh man doesn't the Masterlink seem to be perfect for me! Maybe it is. Does it have the quality I'm looking for? Maybe it does. I don't know. Apogee converters was just my way of saying I need that kind of quality converters (mainly the A/D converters) since I know the quality of Apogee converters. Does it have to be Apogee? No. But I need that high of quality. Does the Masterlink have that high of quality converters? I wish I knew because I'd snatch it up in a heartbeat if that were the case.

I'm not so worried about the dither alogrithm as I am of the converters since I'll sending clients' 24-bit medium elsewhere for mastering. Although I really love Apogee's UV22... That'd be such a sweet little "plus".<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
 
Hi JNP,

I've already mentioned that I thought that the upgrade would be out in about three weeks, but I have some new information. Today, I received via Fed-X a CD containing the new 2.0 software! So, this means that it might be available even sooner than I thought. I just wanted to let you know.

-regards,
-glen

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JNP:
Thanks Glen for all that info! Can you tell me when the update will be available? I just purchased the masterlink this week and can say so far it's working great! I already remixed some older CDs that I made with another burner and they sound fantastic! Just being able to monitor the levels with this is a big upgrade from what I was using!
The only suggestion I have is that they make a small application manual showing some general settings and uses!!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
 
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