mastering some tracks is my downfall...

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drummersteve

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ok, first of all before you read on i want to point out that this band is not able to send the tracks which ive mixed to a mastering house to be done professionally as they do not have the funds for that, so far ive recorded and mixed their tracks and i want to make the best job i can of mastering it. sorry if i sound like im getting annoyed...

ok so i personally think that i have tracked everything and mixed everything to a really high standard, i am really chuffed with the quality that i have been able to establish with these tracks. now for the mastering side of things, this has not been so positive.

i am using cubase sx 1, and i try using the limiter it comes with. it is easily audible when it comes into action, the mix swells up n down like a bastard. excuse my language. bringing the level on the overall mix does solve this, but this makes the overall level much quieter, quite the oppisite of what im trying to achieve.

so, i put a little bit of compression, soft knee, just to reduce the transients in the hope that this would aid the problem. no, it doesnt.

really what i crave for is a plugin or some sort of outboard gear which gives me transparent (as transparent as u can get) limiting for an affordable price. or if not that, techniques people use to get a good high overall level on their mix without it swelling up and down. thanks alot.

Steve

Even articles on this subject would be great, just anything!!
 
Waves Masters bundle with the linear phase multiband comp, EQ and L2 limiter are transparent when used carefully, and sound really good. The L2 sounds like what you need.

If you don't want to shell out the cash, I think you can get some of what you're describing by using several limiters in series. I was never impressed by the built-in Cubase dynamics. Even something like the Blockfish limiter by digital fishphones can get surprisingly good results used with 3 of itself in series, and using subtle comp or limiting at each point. It's freeware. And the freeware multiband comp by slim slow slider is pretty surprisingly good too if you want to get into muntiband compression.

Tim
 
If you're in the midst of the project and need to complete, you might try getting demo versions of some of the Waves plugins and see if they do a better job (L2 limiter, Renn. Compressor, linear phase EQ).

As far as "how to's" go, there was a pretty good thread over at TapeOp not too long ago. I'll see if I can track it down and link it back here.
 
thanks tim, appreciate the help.
ive tried using 3 or so limiters in series from the cubase limiters, this doesnt help tho. it still swells up and down. il check those mentioned plugins.
alexW, if you could track down this article or thread you mentioned that would be excellent, i need all the reading i can get in this area of the home recording domain. thanks guys.

Steve
 
Here you go: http://messageboard.tapeop.com/viewtopic.php?t=29622

It starts with the usual discussion that recordings really don't need to be that loud, etc. But further down there is some practical info for people stuck in your predicament. Good luck.

Also, if the you can't get workable demos of the waves plugs, you might also check out the PSP Vintage Warmer. You should be able to get a demo of it; and it's not that expensive if it turns out you like it. I've never used it but have heard some people like it.
 
The Izotope site has a free pdf mastering guide with excellent info on the process.
 
I'll quote myself from that TapeOp thread -

Stop comparing loud mixes with $300,000 budgets ($20,000 or more of that just for mastering) with "normal" stuff. Mixes have a place where they "want to be" - After that, they start to fall apart.

Good gear (and practical experience, of course) can make it fall apart with a little more "style" than ramming it into a plug, but the most important things about making a recording with a good "smash factor" happen LONG before mastering. Long before mixdown. Before the "RECORD" button is ever pressed, actually...
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You may very well have a mix that's at the volume it wants to be at and you're hearing what happens when you go further. Not all mixes have the potential to be loud and sound good at the same time. And anyone who tells you different doesn't get it. And PLEASE keep in mind that sheer volume is the LEAST important part of the mastering process.
 
Don't expect to be able to do something perfectly if you know you don't have the experience or tools to do it properly. If you're going to be doing this often and need a tool to be able to get "decent" result, I'd go with T-Racks.

However, if you're only doing this once, get a mastering engineer to do it. It won't cost that much more than T-Racks and it'll sound 10x better. Have a benefit show or something...
 
Point Taken But...

Massive Master said:
And PLEASE keep in mind that sheer volume is the LEAST important part of the mastering process.
Click to expand...

I acknowledge this and appreciate this point, and i couldnt agree with it more. although this may be true, the main problem that i am having when trying to master is getting my mixes to a suitable volume. You may listen and think there are other issues with my mastering, and no doubt there is, but the main problem i am concerned with at the moment is the overall level being too low for my, and the bands liking.

Because of the situation, like i have mentioned in my 1st post it is not suitable for the band to get a professional mastering engineer to do the job. I began reading that thread on TapeOp last night but got too tired by about half way through, it was very interesting though, all the different opinions of people. I will continue the read this evening no doubt. What im trying to achieve is be able to have a master of their tracks which is at a suitable volume for their cd, without sucking the life out of the mix, which many people have said overlimiting and overcompressing does - NOT my aim! :) thanks for your input, much more welcome!

Steve

PS Ryan, i know i cannot do it perfectly, the tracking i have done and mixing i have done is by no means perfect, neither will the mastering be. But i wan to be able to achieve the best result within my capabilities, and i believe that is better then how it currently sounds! I may not have experience, but how do you gain experience? From practice, and lots of it, which is what i am doing in this project :) Thanks.
 
drummersteve said:
What im trying to achieve is be able to have a master of their tracks which is at a suitable volume for their cd, without sucking the life out of the mix...
Click to expand...

Then get the mix sounding good and try to get the money together to leave the volume to a Mastering Engineer. Don't try to master it yourself. It will be worth the money and the wait.
 
I thank God for not letting me credit myself as a mastering engineer on the first disc I tried to "master". Trust me, it's horrible. The mixes were much better. The worst part is, it took me about a year to hear how horrible it was. I was so blinded by the fact that I did it, that I couldn't listen to what it actually sounded like.

I hope you don't end up with a similar story.

None the less, this would count as "experience" and I never made the same mistakes again. It just cost me a record to learn.
 
Probably the easiest way I know of the get levels up without totally f*cking up the mix is through Sound Forge's normalize process. Before anyone jumps all over me:

1. The results will NOT be as good as an experienced mastering engineer (or I would not be in this biz)

2. It is not the same as the traditional normalizing function where the level is simply brough up to the maximum amount.

Caveats and notes aside:

You can adjust the RMS level to be anything that you feel is appropriate for the material, use equal loudness curves (compensates for frequencies ala Fletcher Munson).

For peaks over 0dbFS you can apply compression (kinda like a soft limit), set level to 0 (brick wall limit), or saturate (data is allowed to clip).

You can also adjust the attack and release times of the "normalization" process.
 
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Steve, I think I understand what you're trying to do - just apply some peak limiting without getting the "swelling up and down" (pumping/breathing) artifacts you're getting now. You're not saying you want to squash the mix to death and you probably just need to get a good quality compressor and limiter and get to know them.

I've had mastering done in the past but many things I record that I'm not going to have mastered I still want to sound as good as possible when I do my last stage of processing on them. Sounds like that's what Steve's trying to do.

Steve, if you haven't already, I'd check the files for standout peaks. Are there a few that are way above the others? If so, just bring those down indivually at the spots they occur. That can reduce the intensity of any needed comp/limiting on the whole file.

Only a few comp/limiters I've used can apply even mild gain reduction without making the music sound crappy in one way or another. Hell, many dynamics processors cast a veil over the sound just by being in the chain, even when they're not reducing the gain.

With all the free demo's online, it's easy to find a good compressor and limiter.

Tim
 
7string said:
Then get the mix sounding good and try to get the money together to leave the volume to a Mastering Engineer. Don't try to master it yourself. It will be worth the money and the wait.
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Sorry drummersteve that some of us are not hearing your situation properly.

I've been in your situation, and pondered through it myself. There's some good advice on here, and particularly I would advocate working on each track by itself. Compress it, take down the irregular loud drum hits, etc. Then automate the quieter parts up if some of the sections are disappearing. From there some gentle master compression and limiting can be used to bring up your overall volume some more and hopefully not be audible and gross. If you get it as loud as the old U2 albums you were talking about, that's loud enough, IMO. The band might disagree, but at that point tell them to send it to an ME or shut up.
 
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hahaha good advice!
when i mix the track down to a stereo file and bring it in2 cubasse (so i can see the waveform) and this is without any compression or limiting, the peaks which stand out the most are predominatley bass and snare. i could get rid of these by reducing there level in the mix but this would result in not having them at the right level (obviously) for which i think is best for the mix.

as these waveforms have a quick attack and quick decay, the swelling wouldnt be as noticable as it would be on cymbals, guitar, bass, generally the whole mix. if i add yetr another compressor on bass drum and snare to reduce these peaks, the swells wont be noticable plus away go my peaks, hence i can generally raise the track volume without having to compress and limit the fuck out of it? this is probably a technique used by others i duno? thanks for all the input tho guys.

Steve
 
Yep, compress those tracks and see what you get. If you take the peaks down you can raise the gain on the overall track and hopefully not lose their position in the mix. I generally think getting a pretty tight dynamic range on your master bus pre-compression (by taming peaks at the track level) makes things easier.
 
definatley, it seems to make sense written down, whether it al fits together so nicely in reality is another thing, il give that a shot though. thanks alot, anyone else got any tips which i might find useful?
 
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