Martin DCME sinking top...ideas?

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jjf323

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Martin Service Dept just told me that the top of my DCME sank-in 3/8 inch from too little humidity.... And so they won't warranty the guitar.
Bought in 2000, it had perfect pitch, Now it can't play a E and a C with out making you cry. I'm the original owner. This blows my mind.
> Any one else had this (( warranty refusal )) problem with Martin? :confused:

My 9 other guitars, (4 acoustics) in a good studio environment, working fine.
 
I'm very surprised. Martin is usually very good about warranty repairs. Before you try them again, I would get a sound hole humidifier, install it and leave the guitar in it's case to 're-humidify' for awhile. The top should come back up to something useable. If it doesn't, get back to Martin about repairs.

Your problem reinforces the need for humidity control. You should maintain 45-50% relative humidity where your guitars are stored. If this is not possible, case or soundhole humidifiers are essential to the health of your guitars. The hygrometer in the link below is great to have in studios, repair shops or even your home to monitor humidity for the health of your guitars or other equipment.
http://www.stewmac.com/shop/Tools/Measuring_tools/Digital_Hygrometer.html
 
You have a classic case of dry guitar, yes the best thing you could do right now would be to take it into the bathroom set it on a guitar stand and take a shower....

make sure the water steams up the room and make sure the guitar gets humidity but does not get wet from splashing water or what ever...

Go to Wal-Mart and buy a meter for keeping track of how humid it is in the case (they sell these little things that run on a single AAA battery for like $7.00) buy a few of those one for your studio and one for your case, maybe even one for your car when traveling with that guitar...

next talk to a good repair man about what can be done to your guitar, how he can make your claim with Martin for you.
 
Sinking Martin.

Yes I've always kept one of those "soundhole - antifeedback-on-stage type of black rubber sponge filled humidifiers" in it. (It keeps the wood smelling so sweet) -They don't believe me. The shop that shipped it to Nazareth removed it for the trip. So when the repair guys saw the guitar: it didn't have one in it. I feel they (Martin) are taking advantage of all and any thing they can to avoid the service liability.
 
You also did not buy a D28 and sad to say but sometimes with a company the size of Martin they want to support the guys who spend the most money with them.

talk to a repair man local who is on Martins "good guy list"

those guys are known to go to bat for you if they are any good.
 
jjf323 said:
Yes I've always kept one of those "soundhole - antifeedback-on-stage type of black rubber sponge filled humidifiers" in it. (It keeps the wood smelling so sweet) -They don't believe me. The shop that shipped it to Nazareth removed it for the trip. So when the repair guys saw the guitar: it didn't have one in it. I feel they (Martin) are taking advantage of all and any thing they can to avoid the service liability.

you gotta be careful. take that thing out when it's not wet, because a dry one will suck the rest of the humidity out of your guitar.
 
Up-Date on sunk Martin...

Dale (service teck at Martin) told me on May 30th that for 254.00 they can:
1) rehumidify 50.00
2) reset neck free
3) replace bridge free
4) refret 190.00

>> does this sound like a good deal?? $ 254.00 total with a 12 week wait.

( I won't see my baby til' September.)
My local shop says that Martin needs to replace the top, they've seen so many they won't do it any more. So I'm stuck with Martin-factory-repair.
Again, it sounds as if Martin might be doing a just minimal repair just to get it out of there, and ultimately the repairs won't be worth the money I've spent....

>>Should I bend over?? :confused:
 
jjf323 said:
Dale (service teck at Martin) told me on May 30th that for 254.00 they can:
1) rehumidify 50.00
2) reset neck free
3) replace bridge free
4) refret 190.00

>> does this sound like a good deal?? $ 254.00 total with a 12 week wait.

( I won't see my baby til' September.)
My local shop says that Martin needs to replace the top, they've seen so many they won't do it any more. So I'm stuck with Martin-factory-repair.
Again, it sounds as if Martin might be doing a just minimal repair just to get it out of there, and ultimately the repairs won't be worth the money I've spent....

>>Should I bend over?? :confused:

The following is a bit of a rant, predicated primarily by particularly pathetic pontification on other websites (sorry about the alliteration)

[rant]


That's a HECK of a deal. I charge $300 for a refret, minimum.


OK, first of all, so far no one has come in here bad mouthing Martin. Just to give fair warning, anyone who does so (being serious, so keep your mouth shut
ez_willis) is going to get negative rep from me every chance I get. They have one of the best warranties you will find in ANY business, and to say otherwise is frankly stupid.

That being said, they do not cover humidity damage. And they shouldn't. If you bought your guitar new, you got a little pamphlet which explicitly told you to keep your guitar humidified, and that if you did not the warranty would be VOID. This is, to be frank, as it should be. Humidity damage has nothing to do with their design, workmanship or materials. It is simply because you did not read and follow the manual. That they are offering to do any work for you, once you have show your guitar this kind of neglect, is evidence of their commitment to customer satisfaction and their seriousness with their warranty. To give you an even better idea, our shop has, in the last 6 years or so, done warranty work which considerably exceeded the original retail cost of the guitar on a 1934 Martin D-28. Try to get any other company in the world to do that.

[/rant]



Now, as to what you should DO. I think you should get your guitar fixed. I'm in a professional repair shop, however, so my bias towards fixing guitars should be pretty obvious. That being said, if they have your guitar and have sent you a Repair Quotation (the name of the form they send out on repairs) which is priced the way you mention, then I would do so. What they are suggesting is FAR from being "minimal repairs." If you had to pay for all of that yourself in a good shop [rant](as you rightfully should)[/rant], you would be looking at over $750. The one thing to keep in mind, by the way, is that the repair department at Martin is not what anyone would call timely in their repairs. Minimum wait is usually 6 months. You might get it done faster at a local Martin Warranty center (certainly, you would at my shop, though I hear all kinds of horror stories about other shops have guitars for years with routine stuff like this). And by the by, the guitar does not need a new top. It just needs to be properly humidified, and it needs some repair work. That's it. New tops are not only difficult and expensive, but completely unnecessary 90% of the time, and they are very BAD for the sound of the guitar. The aging effect on guitars happens everywhere, but the effect of on the top has a bigger effect on the sound of the guitar than any other element of the guitar. Unless it is missing, replacing a top is almost never a good idea.

Now, the OTHER important question, which I have not seen you ask, is what you should do when you get your guitar back in good shape. The answer, of course, is to HUMIDIFY YOUR GUITAR. Go out and get a Kyser Lifeguard, throw away that stupid hard plastic ring they included with the packaging, and use it. You don't need it all the time, but you DO need it during the winter. In addition to that, you ALSO should be running a soap dish humidifier in the case. And of course, keep the guitar in the case when you are not playing it. The other part of all of this (the part you probably didn't do well enough) is to keep those sponges damp. When it is really dry, they will dry out in just a couple of days. That's when you have problems.


Oh, and don't take the guitar into the bathroom when you are showering. The sudden changes are not good for the guitar.



Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi
 
Light said:
The following is a bit of a rant, predicated primarily by particularly pathetic pontification on other websites (sorry about the alliteration)

[rant]


That's a HECK of a deal. I charge $300 for a refret, minimum.


OK, first of all, so far no one has come in here bad mouthing Martin. Just to give fair warning, anyone who does so (being serious, so keep your mouth shut
ez_willis) is going to get negative rep from me every chance I get. They have one of the best warranties you will find in ANY business, and to say otherwise is frankly stupid.

That being said, they do not cover humidity damage. And they shouldn't. If you bought your guitar new, you got a little pamphlet which explicitly told you to keep your guitar humidified, and that if you did not the warranty would be VOID. This is, to be frank, as it should be. Humidity damage has nothing to do with their design, workmanship or materials. It is simply because you did not read and follow the manual. That they are offering to do any work for you, once you have show your guitar this kind of neglect, is evidence of their commitment to customer satisfaction and their seriousness with their warranty. To give you an even better idea, our shop has, in the last 6 years or so, done warranty work which considerably exceeded the original retail cost of the guitar on a 1934 Martin D-28. Try to get any other company in the world to do that.

[/rant]



Now, as to what you should DO. I think you should get your guitar fixed. I'm in a professional repair shop, however, so my bias towards fixing guitars should be pretty obvious. That being said, if they have your guitar and have sent you a Repair Quotation (the name of the form they send out on repairs) which is priced the way you mention, then I would do so. What they are suggesting is FAR from being "minimal repairs." If you had to pay for all of that yourself in a good shop [rant](as you rightfully should)[/rant], you would be looking at over $750. The one thing to keep in mind, by the way, is that the repair department at Martin is not what anyone would call timely in their repairs. Minimum wait is usually 6 months. You might get it done faster at a local Martin Warranty center (certainly, you would at my shop, though I hear all kinds of horror stories about other shops have guitars for years with routine stuff like this). And by the by, the guitar does not need a new top. It just needs to be properly humidified, and it needs some repair work. That's it. New tops are not only difficult and expensive, but completely unnecessary 90% of the time, and they are very BAD for the sound of the guitar. The aging effect on guitars happens everywhere, but the effect of on the top has a bigger effect on the sound of the guitar than any other element of the guitar. Unless it is missing, replacing a top is almost never a good idea.

Now, the OTHER important question, which I have not seen you ask, is what you should do when you get your guitar back in good shape. The answer, of course, is to HUMIDIFY YOUR GUITAR. Go out and get a Kyser Lifeguard, throw away that stupid hard plastic ring they included with the packaging, and use it. You don't need it all the time, but you DO need it during the winter. In addition to that, you ALSO should be running a soap dish humidifier in the case. And of course, keep the guitar in the case when you are not playing it. The other part of all of this (the part you probably didn't do well enough) is to keep those sponges damp. When it is really dry, they will dry out in just a couple of days. That's when you have problems.


Oh, and don't take the guitar into the bathroom when you are showering. The sudden changes are not good for the guitar.



Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi

10-4! ;)



I've never even played a Martin.

I'm a freakin' bass player, remember.
 
Well said Light. Martin has always been known for going above and beyond in their warranty work.
 
Thank you LIGHT

Thank you light for bringing illumination to this dark subject.
-Once you made the argument for Martin, I realized that they are attempting to do a "good-thing".
I called and authorized the work today.

This web-site is great! It helped me become more confident in an area I knew little of. ie accoustic guitar repair. There is e-wisdom.

>> Again -- thank you Light!! :)
 
Somewhat of a tangent, but I sometimes wonder why guitars don't have soundposts :confused: with all these sunken tops and all :confused:
 
mshilarious said:
Somewhat of a tangent, but I sometimes wonder why guitars don't have soundposts :confused: with all these sunken tops and all :confused:
A soundpost would ruin the tone of the top as an acoustic top needs to vibrate freely to sound it's best, very much like a drum skin. Imagine if you placed a soundpost between the top and bottom skin of a snare drum. Also, a soundpost would, more than likely, destroy a top as it dried by acting as wedge and breaking the glue joint of the seam of the top, back, or both. As Light stated, 99.9% of all sunken tops are caused by owner neglect, i.e. failure to maintain humidity levels, so the bottom line is, humidify those guitars if you don't want to have a sunken top, protruding fret ends, cracks in the top, loose bridges, peeling pickguards, loose braces etc, etc, and so on and so on. (Some top movement is completely normal, but there should always be a gentle arch, never an concave dip)

BTW...jjf, glad to hear that Martin is working with you. I knew they would. Their warranty policy is one of the best in the industry. If any are in the Nazareth PA area, it is a worthwhile day to take the tour of their factory. It always amazes me to see multi-million dollar technology working in concert with old school, hands on luthiers. Plus, the old building is a parts and tools shop. The guys in there are great.
 
gbdweller said:
A soundpost would ruin the tone of the top as an acoustic top needs to vibrate freely to sound it's best, very much like a drum skin.

But why is that not true of other stringed instruments? Granted, they are not braced. But then the bracing keeps the top from vibrating too :confused:
 
mshilarious said:
But why is that not true of other stringed instruments? Granted, they are not braced. But then the bracing keeps the top from vibrating too :confused:
The action of frequencies created by a vibrating string on a soundbox is a little too complicated to post here so check this link out on violin acoustics
http://www.phys.unsw.edu.au/~jw/violintro.html

An acoustic guitar top is much thinnner (less than 1/8" thick) than a carved top of a violin or similar instrument. It vibrates and interacts with the rest of the soundbox differently than a carved top. The braces of an acoustic guitar do change the way the top vibrates, which is one reason why a handmade guitar will almost always sound better than a factory line special. To put it as simply as possible, the braces are carved to the smallest dimension possible, while the luthier periodically taps the top listening for the effect on the 'tap tone' as the brace dimension changes, all the while attempting to maintain a structurally sound top. The braces do act similar to a soundpost by transferring the energy of the vibrating top to the sides and rest of the soundbox.

The dynamics are a lot more complicated than this post, but I hope my explanation helps to answer you question.
 
gbdweller said:
The dynamics are a lot more complicated than this post, but I hope my explanation helps to answer you question.

Yes, thanks, that was interesting.
 
gbdweller said:
Your problem reinforces the need for humidity control. You should maintain 45-50% relative humidity where your guitars are stored.

Depending on what manufacturer you ask, I've seen recommendations as low as 35% and as high as 65%. I think both ends of that are probably a bit excessive, but.... The recommendations I've seen for pianos are generally 40-45%, for pretty much the same reasons. I suspect that 45% +/- 5 would be considered a reasonable compromise.

I'd say 35% is a bare minimum, and should probably be avoided over long periods of time. Anything from 40-50% is probably okay. 55% should be an absolute maximum, IMHO (contrary to the handful of shops that suggest 60-65%). There are two reasons for this. First, in extremely wet air, condensation is a bigger problem when bringing instruments in from the winter cold. Second, metal parts oxidize much more rapidly at levels over about 55%. Unless everything is stainless, that can't be good for your instrument---particularly for things like audio jacks, solder joints, copper wiring, and of course, metal strings (though those are certainly easy enough to replace).

More important than the specific level (as long as it isn't 10% or something totally obscene), though, is avoiding rapid, broad swings in humidity or temperature. You should try to keep the humidity as constant as possible, and you should avoid high temperatures. If I had a choice when storing an instrument for six months between a constant 35% humidity and swinging rapidly between... say 40 and 65, I'd pick the constant 35. The 35% guitar might have a couple of cracks near the bridge from the extreme, but the oscillating guitar would almost certainly be falling apart from constant expansion and contraction.
 
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