Marketing "How to", (he he)

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So far, for me, (I might be wrong) there is no reasonable argument against this statement "When an ordinary listener discovers a song that he likes and has possibility to listen to it several times, he loses incite to purchase this song." Except that these issue does requires attention "I tried listening to this guy's song yesterday, with the watermark. I couldn't listen to more than 15 seconds of the song before I turned it off. It's annoying as hell (not the song, the watermark). Great marketing." But this is more the matter of polling issue. But in any case audiojungle have built their business and watermark for them is a must. I do not think that they are stupid as their business is large.

Anyway - my advice is - do not give away free samples to get popular. The one who gets free sample from you will never buy your mp3. It is up to you.

I get lots of free downloads. I buy lots of music. I've never bought a song that I got for free. That would be ludicrous. But I've often bought songs from artists that gave me free songs.

Saying that people lose the incentive to buy music because they hear it repeatedly is kind of self defeating as well. That's what has DRIVEN sales in the good ol' US of A. Pop songs on radio since the 20s have driven sales of music. People hear a song they like a couple dozen times and then go out and get the music.

The main difference is that the digital age has made it much easier to steal the music. Yes thieves have always been around, but our current generation has been aptly named "the entitled generation" We have too many young kids coming up that believe they can take whatever they want (and I know there's a lot of exceptions). But piracy HAS driven the music business under. It's also driving the software business under. It's starting to wear on the movie business. When you have to consider 80-90% (probably a very low estimate) of the music/software/movies that get to the public will be pirated it tends to drive your drive down. :) If you have 2 million people with your album, you've likely only sold 200,000 copies...

Having said that, software comes up with new, invasive, anti-pirating schemes that keep people from stealing/pirating. Which drives pirates to come up with new ways to hack the schemes. Ad infinitum. The movie industry is doing the same. You are correct in assuming that the music industry needs something similar. What that is may be the best debate we can get into here.

BUT, there's a problem with that. There's SO MUCH music out there from SO MANY different genres that people like. You can write 20 hit songs that NEVER GET HEARD. There are a few writers that I know (of) that do nothing but write music for other artists, because THEY HAD ONE BIG HIT. After that, they may have several more, but the point is, somehow they got the ear of someone who could make a hit. They got a song in their hands and got it recorded. They got their song on the radio and etc. in the capable hands of a "great" band (or artist) and now they are in demand. They're making their living off music in the same way that every musician has ever made their living off music...dumb luck.

Yes, there are exceptions where people make their living off music by hard work. God bless 'em. I admire Lt Bob and Mutley and the few around here that do. But even most of the guys that are making money off their music (or engineering skills) have full time jobs or businesses elsewhere.
RAMI, Greg, Jimmy, Steen...all make excellent sounding music. Great mixes. They also all have full time jobs.

Yes, marketing plays a very important and vital role in the music business. Few of the major bands of our time would be where they are if they just wrote the music they love and put it up on soundcloud.com. Doesn't work that way, never did. But the biggest role in becoming "The Next Big Thing" has always been luck. Won't change. Right place+Right time--Superstar. The rest, meh.

Yes we're all cynical, most of us are in our 40s to 60s and have been trying to get into the music business and gave up on making money and are doing it for love...maybe that's where we should have started.
 
Saying that people lose the incentive to buy music because they hear it repeatedly is kind of self defeating as well. That's what has DRIVEN sales in the good ol' US of A. Pop songs on radio since the 20s have driven sales of music. People hear a song they like a couple dozen times and then go out and get the music.

Despite the above, I reckon Lugatt has a point here.

It depends on whether others share my past experience which is this:

1 I hear something that interests me. I don't need to hear it repeatedly to know that I like it. I know this straight away.
2 Sometimes I like it so much I will buy it.
3 I will take said purchase home and play it straight away
4 Thereafter it gets played frequently. For a little while.
5 And then it goes on the shelf with the other CDs, and there it languishes.
6 Every once in a while I might go back to it. But most often not.
7 Go back to point 1. The cycle repeats.

For an artist to make money off me requires me to make the purchase before I get tired of hearing it.
 
I listened to your watermark tune - it's the first time I've heard a watermarked song - it was incredibly distracting with a very doleful voice, you I presume, saying "this is a watermark" or whatever - and it made me not want to buy the song because you just sounded like an incredibly unhappy depressed dude. Sorry 'n all...

I had to go listen to it after reading your comment - totally agree, first time for me hearing a 'watermarked' song. The mix was not that good anyway.


For me, I buy CDs to support artists I like. Like Gecko, the CDs usually become dust collectors after a few plays, but I'll pull out one or two at random when I'm driving somewhere and I know I'll be out of my usual local radio range. Likewise,, the only downloads I've ever purchased are from artists I like. I've heard some good stuff from folks here, but never actually bought anything from any of them (sorry guys). Downloads only? They languish on my computer most of the time, so seldom get any play unless its a whole album I burn to CD - I finally took possession of an iPod for the first time just a few months ago - one my wife wasn't using. So far, I've only used it for couple of backing tracks for my live performances.
 
This guy has chosen the WRONG time to try to sell his little singles.

Look lugget, don't blame the system. Instead of trying to trick and manipulate people into buying your crap, write and record something that's worth buying.
 
This guy has chosen the WRONG time to try to sell his little singles.

Look lugget, don't blame the system. Instead of trying to trick and manipulate people into buying your crap, write and record something that's worth buying.

+1 to that^^

Forget about marketing until you have something to sell. Invest your time and money creating something that makes you happy. If it is good, then maybe someone will buy it. Maybe...
 
First of all thanks for the reminder that this is a global community. My perspective and all of my experience is from here in the US and I think we sometimes forget that situations can be different. Heck, even here in this huge monstrosity of a country situations can be very different.

I still have to say, though, that it's not impossible, it's just really hard. If you're in Georgia, you can drive to anywhere in Europe. Go find your audience! Who's gonna feed your kids? Well, if you put in the time and effort and manage to start making reall money, then you will! Yes, it can be a risk any time you change careers. It's for you to realistically assess that risk.

I get a lot of music off of Bandcamp.com. I could just stream for free, but then I couldn't listen in my car, or have it come up in my VLC shuffle. So I download. Most of these things are priced at "$0 or more", and I always pay something. Usually like a buck a song.

I have no illusions that I will make real money off of my horrible noises. Even if I sold something to every single person in the world who actually likes it, I'd probably be able to drink for a month. :/. But I always set a real price for my downloads. I put that stuff up on the web primarily so that I can access it when I want to. You can stream it all you want, but if you want to have the convenience of owning the file, you can pay me. A couple of people even do every once in a while.
 
I tried listening to this guy's song yesterday, with the watermark. I couldn't listen to more than 15 seconds of the song before I turned it off. It's annoying as hell (not the song, the watermark). Great marketing. :D

I thought it was just a poor attempt to add a Pink Floyd vibe to the tunes!
"You are listening to an album preview......." (or whatever he's repeating). :laughings:


Really....there's no money in online sales, CD sales or performing unless you already have a huge fan base.

Honestly, I'm starting to think that giving it all away for free initially, is the easiest/best/fastest way to actually develop an online fan base and get some attention.
You won't make any money on all that free stuff, but if it's good and people like it, and they can get it for free...there might(?) be a chance that down the road you potentially could charge for some new stuff and get people to pay for it.
IOW....once the fan base is developed, then they may be willing to buy your next release if they really liked the free stuff.
 
I thought it was just a poor attempt to add a Pink Floyd vibe to the tunes!
"You are listening to an album preview......." (or whatever he's repeating). :laughings:

Is it just me or would the song maybe benefit from the voice bit with proper lyrics? :P

Edit: you can always go the merchandise route. Zakk Wylde has probably made more money off of his cult surrounding BLS than the actual CDs.
 
Just finished reading the replies.

1. In 20es there was no reverbnation no youtube where you can play it again by clicking a mouse. One was not able to do so with radio that's why they bought EPs LPs - to have this two abilities. a. listen when he wants. b. repeat rewind when he wants. Now you can do this on any site without even downloading a song. Find what you want on youtube, have a listen, replay, than replay again and after lets say 10 or 20 free replays in total within 5 or 6 days, you discover new song and forget about this one. In 20es you was not able to replay song on the radio. That is the main point.

2. I wrote few hours ago (6 or 7 hours before) "Thank you for your advise regarding my watermark. I will change it or remove and leave only 1 minute previews." And I did removed watermarks 6 or 7 hour ago. But!!! Again!!! For some reason you are concentrated on my bad watermark. Why don't you visit audiojungle.com listen to what people sell there (they have standard watermark) and check whether it is terrible or not. Because these guys sell licenses and each costs more than USD 10 and they say their business is ok and growing. So I can say they sell songs for USD10+ for each song and all these songs have a watermark. Forget about my watermarks - what can you say about audiojungle watermarks?

3. Greg_L - you are the person meeting whom and having even a conversation with whom would be of no pleasure at all for me. You are playing dirty game and you love it. I responded to you several times to show respect, but from now - this is the last time I am mentioning you in my post and last time that I reply to your post.

4. jimmys69 Man I got your message earlier. :) I understood that my mixes have to be improved. But it does not mean that I cannot talk about marketing that does not mean in its turn that I am marketing my songs here ;)

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I want to summarize first issue and to rephrase the question as everybody are talking about my bad watermark and completely ignore audiojungle.com with their watermark. And also forget about my marketing of my songs. There is no such a thing. I am talking about marketing in general.

So the question is
In 20es - a listener listened to a song on the radio. He liked it. he wanted to listen to it again. Therefore he had to by EP. Nowadays, a listener finds a song on youtube or reverbnation. Likes it. Wants to listen to it again. He clicks on play button. He wants to listen to it again. he clicks play button. After 5th time he got tired of this song and starts to find something new. Where is marketing drive for him to buy a song? Can anybody answer this question without referring to my bad watermark and my bad mixing and my marketing of my songs?

Second issue will be the fanbase, My previous band had 3K fans on reverbnation and about 400 on n1m.com. We did made some sales - about 10, not much, and there are a few issues related to fanbase and communication with them. So, to be continued .... Back to the first issue.
 
Lol. It's not the 20s anymore.

3. Greg_L - you are the person meeting whom and having even a conversation with whom would be of no pleasure at all for me. You are playing dirty game and you love it. I responded to you several times to show respect, but from now - this is the last time I am mentioning you in my post and last time that I reply to your post.

Hey, the truth hurts, so you just ignore it when you see it? Fair enough. Enjoy your delusions, spamtroll.
 
J Because these guys sell licenses and each costs more than USD 10 and they say their business is ok and growing. So I can say they sell songs for USD10+ for each song and all these songs have a watermark. Forget about my watermarks - what can you say about audiojungle watermarks?

I've got to learn to stop wasting my time with this thread! Just went to this audiojungle place - these people are offering loops that you can purchase to use - NOT SELLING SONGS! And I doubt that any/many of them are selling anything, but I don't know the beats genre, maybe these 'producahs' pay for their loops? (I doubt it)

Reverbnation 'fans' aren't fans at all, they're just other musicians, dude. That's why you didn't have any sales (whatever the music sounded like).
 
I've got to learn to stop wasting my time with this thread! Just went to this audiojungle place - these people are offering loops that you can purchase to use - NOT SELLING SONGS! And I doubt that any/many of them are selling anything, but I don't know the beats genre, maybe these 'producahs' pay for their loops? (I doubt it)

Reverbnation 'fans' aren't fans at all, they're just other musicians, dude. That's why you didn't have any sales (whatever the music sounded like).

I know the guy who earns money from audiojungle by selling loops songs and whatever. He made money for living by this, no other job. As you have not mentioned watermarks - may I assume their watermarks were not annoying?

P.S. What really makes me wonder - you talk about everything but the main point that is raised. Does it really matters and is it really important that they are selling loops, not songs? You can upload a song there actually and license it for USD10+. And from all what I had said you find this as most important thing? (That I named loops as songs) What about my question? Actually it is he mot important point that I am talking about

"In 20es - a listener listened to a song on the radio. He liked it. he wanted to listen to it again. Therefore he had to by EP. Nowadays, a listener finds a song on youtube or reverbnation. Likes it. Wants to listen to it again. He clicks on play button. He wants to listen to it again. he clicks play button. After 5th time he got tired of this song and starts to find something new. Where is marketing drive for him to buy a song? Can anybody answer this question without referring to my bad watermark and my bad mixing and my marketing of my songs?"
 
Reverbnation 'fans' aren't fans at all, they're just other musicians, dude. That's why you didn't have any sales (whatever the music sounded like).

You are wrong. In 2008 and 2009 there were about 200 new listeners, not musicians every day. I was checking that data everyday, I was contacting each newly registered listener personally. I had conversations with them. I was working heard to made that fan base. There were artists too but they were becoming fans directly without me contacting them in order for me to become their fan, but there were different browsing system and it was almost perfect system. Now they have a crap. But I still feel that they are growing if to check data on alexa.com
 
I always miss all the fun threads. :(

I sometimes buy music that I can get for free. New releases from bands that I like, old and new bands, I mainly buy on vinyl where I can. (I'm a vinyl collector/hoarder) If I hear one song I like from someone, I usually, 9/10, buy the album the song's from to see if there is anything else good on it.

I bought a cracking album produced by Steenamaroo on here last year (CD only, Boooo) and got a couple of freebies chucked in as well.

Chance of commercial success in the music business is probably around 0.00000000001% in this day and age. You've got to have something pretty fucking significant and different and have the right people hear it, at the right time, for you to stand that 0.00000000001% chance. For the majority of music makers, this will never happen. It's just a dream. You stand more chance of winning The X Factor or The Voice, if you can do a bit of karaoke.

As for the bedroom/studio recording artist that has 50 fans on reverbnation, 100 likes on Facebox or 1,000,000 friends on MySpace. You're pissing in the wind. You going to have to do a whole lot more than posting a few mp3's up on the web to make any money/success. Nobody is looking for Mr Nobody's music. Fact!

The best way of selling music at a gig I've seen was a guy called Dave Fidler. He put a pile of CD's next to an empty pint glass and invited people to take one and if they thought he was worth giving any money to for it, to put in what they wanted to pay. That glass filled up and he sold out. I got one and chucked in £5 and I bought the guy a pint after the gig. Nice fella and a cracking CD too.

I would do this. ^^^

:thumbs up:
 
Yep, I cannot argue with what you have said. I agree 100%.

Also - definitely there are people who will listen and then will buy if they like it. But something tells me that majority will not. They will listen until they "get tired" from that song and then will shift to something new and that song will be forgotten. And another issue is that - how many people are searching for new songs from indie bands? I suspect most people are waiting for new clip of Lady Gaga. But I cannot say anything with respect to that - have no statistics :)
 
Yep, I cannot argue with what you have said. I agree 100%.

Also - definitely there are people who will listen and then will buy if they like it. But something tells me that majority will not. They will listen until they "get tired" from that song and then will shift to something new and that song will be forgotten. And another issue is that - how many people are searching for new songs from indie bands? I suspect most people are waiting for new clip of Lady Gaga. But I cannot say anything with respect to that - have no statistics :)

I will never listen to a stream several times.
I'll listen once and decide it's not for me then never return, or I'll listen once, or maybe twice, then decide to buy the record.
Now, most of the people I know would probably be the same, but then most of the people I know are music lovers.

Even if you end up being right and the majority of people are listening to your music 5 times, not buying it, getting bored, then moving on, I don't see how a watermark helps.
If they are that fickle they'll just be put off by the watermark and not bother with a second listen at all.

At least without the watermark, someone might actually remember your name or your song. It's a long game, remember.

Keep in mind, pretty much all the commercially released music that's being bought right now can be streamed all day and night for free on spotify - legally!

It's a worrying thought anyway, that real music could have such a short shelf life. I listen to the same shit over and over and over again, and every once in a while I discover something new that gets added to the list.
 
definitely there are people who will listen and then will buy if they like it. But something tells me that majority will not. They will listen until they "get tired" from that song and then will shift to something new and that song will be forgotten.

There's a world of difference between music lovers (those that buy music and actively seek out new music) and those that listen to the same shit on the popular radio stations over and over. They don't need to buy music as it is forced down there throats, every day, on every station, advert, tv show, etc. Music lovers are a dieing breed. For someone to find new music they have to actively seek it out and people are too damn lazy these days to do that so they just settle for what's in their face.

And another issue is that - how many people are searching for new songs from indie bands?

I have no idea of the statistics for such a thing but I do, I listen to a lot of "Other" radio stations that play that kind of music that I might like and will want to search out and hear more. I share new discoveries with friends and family that I think will like a certain act/band/song/album. I used to love Myspace for finding new bands that no-one knew of and I found a shit ton of them on there, mostly before they were famous or making a dime from music.

Steve Lamacq on BBC6 Music plays loads of good bands that'll probably never make an average months pay in year from having their music online and marketing it but will be touring like hell to make ends meat and quite possibly working other jobs. If they gave away 50 second samples with a watermark, they'd probably never get played anywhere. Think!

Hang on to that bad boy. It'll be worth a fortune some day. ;)

Haha. Definitely ;)
 
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