Manning1, I would like to discuss with you the "triangle" setup further.....

[chadsxe]

Manning1, I would like to discuss with you the "triangle" setup further.....

I keep reading your post about the “Triangle” setup, and it has me a little confused. When visualizing the triangle am I thinking of it as the amps and drums or were the mics are placed? If I am thinking of it as the instruments then were the mics placed? I noticed you said after you have those there mics placed you can then fill in with a few other mics, maybe as over heads for the drums or on the bass. My question to that would be how do you control guitar level issues? Because there are no mics localizing the guitars would setting them perfect before the recording be the only way? The room I am working with is about as bad as it gets. Cramped and no sound treatment what so ever. This is a continuation of this post https://homerecording.com/bbs/showthread.php?t=135136

 

[manning1]

3 points in a triangle. ......

eg............................ DRUMS





GUITARAMP1 ................................. GUITARAMP2
(mic) < this distance is important....> (mic)

you have to have an assistant move 1 and 2 (with the mics)
while you listen to the mix and band playing. in essence your experimenting with the length of each "face" of the triangle. the idea being the
two guitar amp mics pick up the drums as leakage. the whole aim being
fewer mics = more control. rule...the more mics used = more chance of losing control. a lot of bed tracks were done like this in the old days.
to eliminate the overbearing nature of the kik try removing it and
triggering a kik sample. try one more mic if you wish above the drums. 3 mics in total. the sound of the room is vitally important to success.
but this rule can be broken if you are lucky. run bass direct or with a bass cab that is not overbearing the rest of the instruments.
peace.
ps - the guitarists have to realise too the importance of not cranking everything to 11 and giving the drums space. its a very carefull balancing act. good for solid bed tracks with guitarist 1 and 2 basically chunking out
rhythms. (not leads). the aim is a solid bed track. then you can overdub the drums again as the drummer has something to play to. another advantage is it makes the 3 piece real tight. if they get it right. it forces tightness
before overdubbing. such as lead vocals, guitars etc. maybe a synth.
but the distances are most important factor. you dont want drums so far back you loose them.

 

[chadsxe]

If the the two guitar amp mics are suppose to pick up the drums as leakage why would you re-record the drums after? Would that not lead to dubed drum sound.

 

[manning1]

with respect. onthe first pass the objective is to get the drummer to play simply. HH,snare,kik. the overdub is to give the illusion of two drummers playing. so the drummer can play off himself. leaving the mics where they are or experimenting further.
as the name "bed track" implies. your laying a "foundation" like the foundation of a house. you dont build a house without a solid foundation.
very difficult to put the roof on as a weird example.
sometimes the drummer overdubs are done much later once all the other tracks are flushed out. this is why people talk about arrangement
and song planning.

 

[chadsxe]

That makes more sense now that you said "simple". Do you want the mix on the first take to be even throughout drums and guitar? Or do you want the drums to be lower so you are able to further mix the levels of guitar to drums once the drummer has dubed in.

 

[manning1]

very clever question chad. kudos to you.
remember in the old big charting songs they had only often 3 track machines at best (used two 3 tracks with bouncing between them ), that is why if you listen closely youll notice sometimes the drums were quite a ways back in the mix. not as pronounced as more recent songs.
the drums were just "there" if you know what i mean. very subtle.
re....you said ....Or do you want the drums to be lower so you are able to further mix the levels of guitar to drums once the drummer has dubed in.....

you can certainly do that. its all a question of what fits the song ARRANGEMENT.
for example if you were recording an orchestra at the same time the drums
would not be as dominant probably as a heavy metal 3 piece trio.
in your case ....develope your own style. this is but a methodology template.
adapt it to yourself and develope your own unique methods around it.
try it several ways. drums less dominant at the beginning , and later overdubs once the sides of the house have been erected.
but its not as easy to "cover" drummer mistakes later on if drums are too dominant on the first pass. REALLY LISTEN over phones to old songs, and youll hear drum mistakes. but the normal person doesnt notice them as they were covered over by later overdubs.
the important aspect of getting the bed track down is "the groove".
believe me you will know when its in "the pocket".
you go like. yeah ! thats it ! and you get excited.
as i said it forces the band to be TIGHT. but will take lots of tries.
peace.