Making High Gain Guitar Tone Sound Better...

[Sonixx]

There's been several posts lately about thickening the guitar tone from High Gain Amps post tracking.

The recommendations are all over the board and I generally view these as work arounds:

* Turn the Gain Down because too much gain is thin... yeah too much is but turning it down may also be a work around. find the correct gain amount (which may be significant) for the song context
* Quad Track it (Good but can be difficult to get tight... player skill dependent)
* Delay one side (sort of cool but definitely a work around for this purpose)

There's others that I don't recall right now

Here's a Demo clip with the Raw reamped gtr tracks (one gtr per side) followed by the same track with some EQ (Boosting the parts that sound good and notching the part that does not sound good to me), taming the bottom and plus what is considered a must in the Digital world... Saturation. But, just the right amount. This makes a tremendous difference.

Also, note that the EQ, etc is done outside the framework of mixing the actual song so the outcome during mixing would probably be different.

Take a listen... to me there's no comparison.

Before and After Clip

If there's interest I'll be glad to discuss.

 

[SouthSIDE Glen]

Also, note that the EQ, etc is done outside the framework of mixing the actual song so the outcome during mixing would probably be different.

I think this is an important point that I meant to bring up in that other thread, but forgot to.

The implication in the other thread - though I'm not sure this is true - was that he had a raw guitar track that he was not happy with. There was no mention that I recall that the track was actually checked in a faders up stuation.

What sounds good or bad, thick or thin, on a soloed guitar track is not necessarily what will sound good or bad, thick or thin, in the context of the rest of the mix. The stories are legion of folks working their ass off to get a guitar track sounding "just right", but when put into the mix they just didn't work.

The lesson there is, get the guitar sounding rignt for the mix, not sounding perfect as a solo track. The two are, as often as not, not the same thing.

G.

 

[Jamz0r]

I think this is an important point that I meant to bring up in that other thread, but forgot to.

The implication in the other thread - though I'm not sure this is true - was that he had a raw guitar track that he was not happy with. There was no mention that I recall that the track was actually checked in a faders up stuation.

What sounds good or bad, thick or thin, on a soloed guitar track is not necessarily what will sound good or bad, thick or thin, in the context of the rest of the mix. The stories are legion of folks working their ass off to get a guitar track sounding "just right", but when put into the mix they just didn't work.

The lesson there is, get the guitar sounding rignt for the mix, not sounding perfect as a solo track. The two are, as often as not, not the same thing.

G.

I gave this very advice in that previous thread. The holy grail of tone doesn't always work in the mix...and sometimes, "thin" is just what the track needs.

 

[acidrock]

Jimmy Page did some guitar tracking with Danelectros,they're as "thin" as it gets.

 

[NashBackslash]

Hi Sonixx, if you don't mind, can you share with us how was this guitar tone recorded? What microphones, at what angles and distances, what pre-amp, etc?

EDIT: Your clip reminds me so much of Killswitch Engage's guitar tone.

 

[Jamz0r]

I forgot to add...

I also believe in lowering gain saturation by about 25% while recording digitally, in comparison to what you may use playing live. It usually helps to translate to a cleaner, punchier "mix friendly" and more articulate tone.

 

[LeeRosario]

This is an article that I found on mixonline a while ago:

http://mixonline.com/recording/mixing/audio_guitar_distortion/


I like the fact that it puts another [scientific] spin on distortion, the general types and what that can mean in the mix.


This thread is a good example of reasons why engineers can tend to guard their findings over the years. Other engineers can only assume what they did and they'll try to get the exact result, but then end up using their own unique approach based on that interpretation.

The exact same thing applies here.You can find clues when you just listen to mixes carefully.

For example, with high gain guitars, many people overlook a really basic and monumental element in a mix: the bass.

The definition of your bass, being that bridge between rhythm and tonal support to the guitars, can make the difference between guitars that are impossible to read or a nice, complete and legible sound.

You can't really change the fact high gain guitars are going to be hard to understand in a mix. So many things affect that. But as long as we understand that the use of clean, legible sounds can be layered into the guitar, then you start getting away from those guitars that are almost impossible to read in a mix. In fact, you may even find yourself using more than 1 type of distortion and/or gain setting in a single song to progress within that one song. It explains how busy some of the great guitarists get on stage: pedal stomping, fiddling with the humbucker switches at certain points of the song, different tunning, guitar switching...all that stuff.

There are tradeoffs and that's just the way it goes.

The more you layer, the more legibility you start losing. Yet the thicker it gets. Less layering retains clarity, however may lose that thickness.

Good high gain examples on the Deftones White Pony album, and on alot of the Disturbed stuff. In my opinion of course.

 

[Sonixx]

I gave this very advice in that previous thread. The holy grail of tone doesn't always work in the mix...and sometimes, "thin" is just what the track needs.

Right-O, but for this thread's discussion sake let's please stick to a thick tone and just discuss making it sound better as is... and assuming it's just what the song needs. necessarily liking the tone in Post#1 is not necessary. another mixer would end up in a different place anyways. geeze, I never end up at the same place.

I'm thinking it would be somewhat informative to discuss moving the tone from one place to another. what frequencies get adjusted is almost that same every time. IMO, it ends up being the levels of degree that make the difference.

I can take almost any gtr tone and apply this to make it sound clearer, deeper and more 3D and bring it forward or push it back.

 

[Sonixx]

Hi Sonixx, if you don't mind, can you share with us how was this guitar tone recorded? What microphones, at what angles and distances, what pre-amp, etc?

EDIT: Your clip reminds me so much of Killswitch Engage's guitar tone.

I'll get right back... right now I'm sipping some wine and getting ready to put some burgers on the grill.

 

[Sonixx]

I forgot to add...

I also believe in lowering gain saturation by about 25% while recording digitally, in comparison to what you may use playing live. It usually helps to translate to a cleaner, punchier "mix friendly" and more articulate tone.

please save this discussion for another day.

 

[Jamz0r]

Right-O, but for this thread's discussion sake let's please stick to a thick tone and just discuss making it sound better as is... and assuming it's just what the song needs. necessarily liking the tone in Post#1 is not necessary. another mixer would end up in a different place anyways. geeze, I never end up at the same place.

I'm thinking it would be somewhat informative to discuss moving the tone from one place to another. what frequencies get adjusted is almost that same every time. IMO, it ends up being the levels of degree that make the difference.

I can take almost any gtr tone and apply this to make it sound clearer, deeper and more 3D and bring it forward or push it back.

We all have our "go to" tricks while mixing, and this method is fine, so long as you reference it along with the entire mix while you're at it. We all want great tone, but the mix tone may not necessarily improve by improving the guitar track's tone.

 

[Sonixx]

but the mix tone may not necessarily improve by improving the guitar track's tone.

then you're welcome to do nothing. that's up to you. this is all about my sharing how I go about this. nothing more.

 

[Jamz0r]

I'm not saying don't do it...just reminding that you need to pay attention to how it's affecting the entire mix as well. Better sound is better sound.

 

[Sonixx]

I'm not saying don't do it...just reminding that you need to pay attention to how it's affecting the entire mix as well. Better sound is better sound.

thanks, but not in this case.

Disclaimer: My discussion is not within the confines of any particular mix. Use at your discretion.

 

[Jamz0r]

thanks, but not in this case.

Disclaimer: My discussion is not within the confines of any particular mix. Use at your discretion.

Whar are you doing, mixing a guitar solo?

 

[Sonixx]

Hi Sonixx, if you don't mind, can you share with us how was this guitar tone recorded? What microphones, at what angles and distances, what pre-amp, etc?

EDIT: Your clip reminds me so much of Killswitch Engage's guitar tone.

Over some time, I'll touch on these with Audio and Visual examples

1. Taming/Tightening the Bottom
2. EQing the - Bringing out the good frequencies and killing the bad. Yes there are the good and bad frequencies.
3. Adding Saturation - a very small dose goes a long ways
4. Compression - for frequency enhancement.

 

[P-J]

Interesting thread this.

I agree with one of the above posters. I usually get my sound through the amp, and then back off about 1/3 of the gain to get the same sound 'on tape' as it were. It almost always works.

If I leave it as is, there is almost always more distortion on the recording, even when mic'd at low volume.

 

[Chris Jahn]

nice, im the one who got this started in the first place, and i just read this thread, this second thread on the sme subject was also very informative.

and yes glen is right, getting that perfect sound soloed is useless, ive learnd to definetly mix in the guitars with the rest of the mix going.

 

[BRIEFCASEMANX]

can't wait for more info

 

[Sonixx]

and yes glen is right, getting that perfect sound soloed is useless, ive learnd to definetly mix in the guitars with the rest of the mix going.

the word useless is possibly an over exaggeration...

this seems to assume that the mixer does not know generally how/where to place what's tracked judging solo. this shouldn't be the case. I initially always place solo, but this thread is not at all about mixing. it's focus is moving the guitar tone... and I'm definitely not going to qualify every tweak within the confines of a mix.