Mackie Hr824 Mk1...whats your input?

[CoolCat]

I been eyeing some demo Mackie 824's for months...today they said $400 pair out the door, 30day guarentee.

I have YSM1P's I love... just curious for any inputs on these, and any comments or links to Mackie HR824 from 1997 to 2008

damn gear lust addiction...

so they are the same parts only assembled in China. Vifa speakers, Mackie electronics and cabinet ... MK2 took on a whole new look.

interesting cabinet.

 

[SouthSIDE Glen]

As long as they have some kind or return policy like a 3- day or 7-day return or something like that, you risk nothing trying them out. If they are unreturnable, I wouldn't buy them anyway.

I have a pair of '99 824s that I have been using almost daily since I bought them new going on 9 years ago, and they work great for me. Considering I paid somewhere around $1400 for the pair new, $400/pr looks like a pretty good deal to me, *if* they are in decent condition.

It's funny, 824s are a real inkblot test for people. Some people (like me) love 'em, some people hate 'em. Very few seem to be in the middle. But what it comes down to is where they work in your room OK and you can translate them without breaking too much of a sweat. The first half of that equation is up to your room. The second half is up to the ears you were born with.

For me, my ears took to the 824s in my room like a fish to water, and, except for a couple of early tweaks, translation came very easy for me. Other people find them too "hyped" sounding (amazing, when one looks at the response curves and finds them just as flat overall as anything else in that product range), and blame them for their mixes sounding weak when they take them out into the real world.

The only solution and answer is to find out of they'll work for you, and the only way to do that is to try them out at your desk, and the only way to do that is to make sure you have an honorable return policy from your dealer.

G.

 

[CoolCat]

agree with everything you say. a lot of damn articles on these!!
its like their the "standard" everyone compared too...HR824 vs <enter monitor name here>
yes, I'm reading. I'm attracted to the design and unique electronics. They put a lot under the hood, really interesting design and passive, no port.

I think Mackie may have done what Shure did in Mexico and kept their product in tact through the China work by having them do assembly only. Not many breakdown posts seen and I been readiong for a few hours.(good)

I'd heard there was several returns on the recent China stuff, so I'm concerned on that, per a GC salesman. But these demos are US made and don't state Made in China, so thats strange too? How could demo's be around that long?.....oh well...no big deal, just gear addiction flaring up.

 

[masteringhouse]

With all due respect to Glen I'm not a fan. They had them at both of the colleges I teach at, with one of the colleges replacing them with dynaudios two years ago. It's amazing how much better the mixes have been over the past two years

Compare them against KRKs and Dyns. I think I would even take NS-10s over them.

 

[SouthSIDE Glen]

You can check the manufacture date on those demos pretty easy. There is a manufacture date code printed on the back of the amp on the back of each monitor, right next to the serial number. Here's how the code supposedly breaks down, per the Mackie forum:

n -- Decade
M -- Factory Code M8, M1, etc
n -- Factory code 2nd digit
n -- Year
n -- Month 1st digit
n -- Month 2nd digit

For example, my monitors are coded as

9M1811

which would mean that they were manufactured in Nov, 1998 at wherever factory M1 is located. Which sounds about right, considering I got mine delivered somehwere in the middle of 99.

As far as that Chinese/defective line, that is a favorite scare tactic of GC salespeople to steer folks to something where they can make more money. In this case that salesperson was probably an idiot to steer you away because there is probably a manager's spiff (i.e. cash kickback to the salesperson) on those demos as an incentive to get them off the shelf and the hell out of the store's inventory.

The *real* partial story is that somehwere around 2003, if I got my facts straight, Mackie was bought up bu a company called Loud Technologies. One of the things that happened sometime around that same time was that Mackie moved much of their assembly processes to China.

Look at it this way, if those demos are anything more than a year old and they still work OK, then I wouldn't worry about that hullaballo too much; I'd say if they've already outlived their warranty, that they're probably not defective .

G.

 

[SouthSIDE Glen]

I think I would even take NS-10s over them.

No need for the "respect" line, Tom. It's normal and natural for folks to disagree on this part of the equation. See, for my room and my ears, NS-10s are good for paperweights or fireplace kindling and not much else. I can mix with them OK...if I want a headache after 10 minutes and to be in a belltower with a high powered rifle after an hour .

That doesn't make me right and you wrong, or vice versa. It just means that you should not mix with 824s anymore than I housl mix with NS-10s. We also should not wear shoes of the wrong size for our feet.

I like KRKs also, but I can tell you that I have heard KRK 8s in a friend's CR that don't sound signfigantly different from the way my 824s sound in mine. Yeah, we can hear a difference, of course. But it's not a great one, an uncomfortable one, an unmanageable one or an untranslatable one.

With even morel respect, Tom, I think that any recommendation one way or the other by anybody on any model that is at least on the radar screen is meaningless. I sold these kind of things things in a showroom for several years, and there is no way to possibly predict what any one person is or is not going to like or be able to translate. I'd have one guy with expereince and respect come in and love the Shatner2000 and hate the Zippy500, followed by a guy with equal expereince and respect who thought just the opposite. This happened every day. I simply learned to show them how to use the switchboard and leave them alone in the comp room and let them decide for themselves, because whether any "conventional wisdom" I may have had or personal opinion I may have even had, was a crapshoot as to whether it would wind up serving the customer well or totally steer him wrong.

It really is an individual decision based upon ones own ears and sensitivities. Monitors are perhaps unique from any other part of the signal chain (I'm including headphones here) in that regard, because they are the only device in the chain that is actually *making sound* and are the only device that are coupled to one's ears.

Look, it's worth a $400 marker to borrow them in an in home demo for a few days. If they don't work for CC, he can return them and have an excellent education in how these things work in real life.

G.

 

[masteringhouse]

NS-10s are good for paperweights or fireplace kindling and not much else.

Hey don't forget that they make great kick drum mics! Never tried the Mackies for this

Definitely try them and make your own decision if you can return them without issues.

 

[NL5]

My opinion - the worst monitor I've ever heard. And I hear the new versions are worse.......

Just my opinion though. But really, a horrible, horrible speaker.....

 

[SouthSIDE Glen]

I'm probably going to get spanked hard for saying this (and I don't mean in a good way ), but...

It seems there are a whole lot of people in this business who hate the 824 them becuase one is "supposed to" hate them. If you're really k3wl and in-the-know, it is of course common knowledge that the HR824 is supposed to be the red-headed stepchild of monitors, and looked down upon, even if you have never actually listened to them in person. "Mackie, why I'm too good for those. Harrumph". And then they tend to recommend something from ADAM or Tannoy or Dynaudio that of course are much better, but also, as they usually don't mention, cost 2-3 times as much.

I'm not absolutely sure why the 824 got such a reputation - I can tell you it's not because it's because they actually sound so goddamned awful. One may not care for their particular flavor of sound, and that's fine, but it's not that they are so freakin' radical from everything else made that they deserve the singled-out reputation they get amongst gear sluts. There are a dozen much worse sounding and harder to translate nearfields out there, including (IMHO) half of the Wharfdale line, M-Audio's BX-series, and of course the infamous NS-10. There are a couple of models of Genlecs that haven't earned their nameplates, IMHO, because they suck compared to their quality brothers and even compared to the 824.

Yet it's the 824, almost singularly, that has been the target of ire amongst the gear-o-philes. Why? I'm not sure, but I think it's partly because it came along 10 years ago as the anti-NS-10; it is so unlike the piece of shit NS-10 in sound that those used to the NS-10 just couldn't relate. And because most of those in that position were old-timers in the business, others tend to just buy into their opinions, and help shore up the myth of the "awful 824".

Sure, next to the Rocky Mountain response curve of the NS10, the Mackies will sound "hyped". What won't? Those who claim to want "flat" and "uncolored" response should really look twice at the various response curves for the Mackie and it's nearest competitors. People don't want flat, they want something that sounds like cassette tape without the hiss. They just don't realize it yet.

G.

 

[masteringhouse]

I guess it comes down to what you are looking for in a monitor. Listening for pleasure versus working in audio production are often two separate functions.

NS-10s, while not my choice for listening to music for pleasure, do tend to translate well on other speaker systems. They make bad things sound worse. They tend to exagerate the upper mids and as a result those that mix on them tend to reduce the more fatiguing frequencies of a mix. They suck for judging bottom end though.

OTOH in my opinion Mackies seem to hype bottom and top, but don't represent mids in a way that I feel translate well to the outside world. If I had to choose between listening to NS-10s or Mackies for pleasure, I would likely choose the Mackies over NS-10s though.

The next most important part of your chain after your ears is your monitoring system. If Auratones work for you, use them, if Mackie works use them, just don't make price the overiding priority. Save up for what is going to work best for you. If what you are hearing is skewing your decisions as an engineer it's wasting your time as well as money.

 

[CoolCat]

thanks for the code SG...
ok, LOUD..I read about them owning Crate and Alvarez too.
China built with same Mackie parts, meaning Vifa European/Denmark speakers. Mackie cabinet and electronics, Assembled in China.
Interesting they've maintained the same design since 1996 until the MK2! Same amps, buttons knobs, foam, mdf,etc.. same everything as I understand it.
the personal hearing choice, yes some like blue some like green.
Seriously all inputs are read.
Reading on these Mackies remind me of Shure mics, workhorse. Kind of a "reference" for monitors. "the KRK has more kick than say the Mackie HR824..yet the pump is orangy...yadayadya"

Richard-Tweekz had a really nice article and mentioned "prefered 4ft away (not 3ft) and placement to the wall needed to be thought of in placement as even with the passive radiator on the back, the wall plays an effect. "a big difference was heard from placement". more so than some other speakers.
Tweekz said a bit further away with the HR824 at 4ft...with MidField at 5.5ft.
Sound on Sound had a good article too, nothing over the top..but ok. The "con's" were stupid things I don't care about like lettering size on the cabinet!

As far as losing some mid's...thats a real concern as would be with any 8" speaker versus a 5" or 6" being better for that freq range...in general.

Still for $400 pair, nice deal. I called my brother to buy them but he's out of cash too. I'm strapped...

hmmm...whats there to trade laying around here?

 

[SouthSIDE Glen]

I guess it comes down to what you are looking for in a monitor. Listening for pleasure versus working in audio production are often two separate functions.
...
If I had to choose between listening to NS-10s or Mackies for pleasure, I would likely choose the Mackies over NS-10s though.

I agree completly. I just have never seen anything written or chiseled on tablets anywhere that one cannot have both listening pleasure and translation accuracy at the same time. In fact I find that those two go hand in hand very nicely.

I was only half joking about my response to the NS-10s earlier...I'd never use a belltower; too many stairs! . Seriously, those things are so offensive-sounding to me that my ears get fatigued quickly working with them. I also start to believe after a while that everything is *supposed* to sound like AM radio, even when it's live or played on a quality stereo. Not a very good tool for me to use. Others apparently don't have those problem, and that's just fine. Just don't ask me to use them for very long.

NS-10s, while not my choice for listening to music for pleasure, do tend to translate well on other speaker systems. They make bad things sound worse. They tend to exagerate the upper mids and as a result those that mix on them tend to reduce the more fatiguing frequencies of a mix. They suck for judging bottom end though.

OTOH in my opinion Mackies seem to hype bottom and top, but don't represent mids in a way that I feel translate well to the outside world.

Again, I agree with the technical analysis as to the difference between them. Next to NS-10s which accentuate upper mids, just about anything that extends and flattens out the response is going to - in comparison - sound relatively "hyped". But that's not necessarily hyping, that's increased accuracy and flatness. No the 824s are not perfect sounding - and I will never claim otherwise - but they sure are a hell of a lot more accurate than someting like an Auratone or NS-10, and do an at least competitive job at representing what is really there without "hyping" anything.

However, what I would respectfully disagree with is that there seems to be an implication in there that the act of translation is a passive process handled by the monitor and not an active one done by the engineer, or that one needs an inaccurate monitor in order to handle translation easily.

We don't even have to single out the 824 or the NS-10 here. Just in general, to me the idea that because a monitor is flatter in the upper mids that one is going to make mixes that are too harsh there says more bad things about either the engineer or the listener than it does about the monitor.

Either the engineer just plain sucks and cannot make that upper mid translation properly (one which, by my way of thinking should actually be *easier* when listening to a flatter speaker), or the end listener prefers something that sounds like it has had smiley face EQ applied to it and anything at all in the upper mids is a bad thing to them.

A good engineer shouldn't need their monitors to emphasize the bad, they should be able to hear the bad in a flat playback. And any listener who likes a smiley face EQ curve to their music can do that themselves on playback, but I'm not going to do that with my mix.

I actualy like monitors that are flat and wide in their response. I want to know what the program material actually contains. I can easily translate to what it will sound like on a Jensen coaxial from there without sacrificing the knowledge of what it will sound like on a THX surround system as well.

The next most important part of your chain after your ears is your monitoring system. If Auratones work for you, use them, if Mackie works use them, just don't make price the overiding priority. Save up for what is going to work best for you. If what you are hearing is skewing your decisions as an engineer it's wasting your time as well as money.

This I agree with completly.

The funny thing is, in general, the higher one goes in price, when one does move up to a really nice set of Tannoys or ADAMs or Dynaudios, they are spending their money on flatness, width and accuracy. Those that tout such monitors generally are the same ones who say it's because thy are flat and accurate, without hype like you get in consumer loudspeakers. All true. And all exactly the opposite of the reasons they give for liking NS-10s or Auratones. There is a definite double-standard there. It's not like one goes out and buys $6000 worth of nearfields because they out-NS10 the NS10 .

Let me ask you, Tom; would you ever even consider using NS-10s for mastering? Then why would anybody want to use them for mixing? As a mixing engineer I am just as concerned about detail in my own way as you are. And while my 824s may not be in the same league as a pair of Elipses, I couldn't afford a pair of Elipses (nor were they even around in '99 ), and the 824s certainly do the job very well for me for their midling price point.

G.

 

[CoolCat]

this is interesting:

Well, I did work for Mackie during their "American" heyday before they shipped all of their jobs and integrity abroad. I can tell you that they sourced different parts from different vendors all the time as some parts became unavailable, or were no longer made....or would do the same job for cheaper. It happened with all of their lines and it happens with most pro audio manufacturers in the very same manner I would think. These are businesses and believe it or not, profit does enter the picture. Having said that, I don't think I have ever heard a pair of Chinese made HR824s but I can't imagine that they sound that different than their US counterparts. There was a baseline frequency response that an HR824 had to hit before it was deemed "worthy" for shipment as an "A" stock unit. Each and everyone of them went into an anachoic chamber and was measured with a B&K mic (can't tell you the model) and a frequency plot was printed out and shipped with that speaker showing temp and humidity levels at the time of test. I can't believe that even though they are no longer made in Washington state, that the standard has been lowered due to where they are built. I could be wrong, but it wouldn't make much sense from a business standpoint. I seem to remember people going through a similar reaction when the input connections changes changed during the "THX" certification. People wanted the originals before the change, though the sound of the monitor didn't change. I am not doubting that Mark heard a bad pair but I have to wonder if the issue was something other than build origin.

I found another set on Craigslist for $400 EL40230 and EL40241...

as far as the FLAT Monitor....

I did run a side by side and one thing that was really strange was the $1,000 Dyns sounded the same on various types of music, no matter what they sounded consistent.
My YSM1P's did not....I could tweak them in to match the DYN's, which is what I did.

I don't personally record anyone really, so I don't go from RAP to BLUEGRASS to HEAVY METAL to REGGAE...so I set up my YSM1P's to get the DYN sound on the type music I like and record....and got my $1,000 back.

I don't know what that means, other than Bleyrad mentioned "its a sign of a great speaker to be able to handle all the types of music well"

 

[CoolCat]

The funny thing is, in general, the higher one goes in price, when one does move up to a really nice set of Tannoys or ADAMs or Dynaudios, they are spending their money on flatness, width and accuracy. Those that tout such monitors generally are the same ones who say it's because thy are flat and accurate, without hype like you get in consumer loudspeakers. All true. And all exactly the opposite of the reasons they give for liking NS-10s or Auratones. There is a definite double-standard there. It's not like one goes out and buys $6000 worth of nearfields because they out-NS10 the NS10 .
G.

very bizarre

 

[SonicAlbert]

With all due respect to Glen I'm not a fan. They had them at both of the colleges I teach at, with one of the colleges replacing them with dynaudios two years ago. It's amazing how much better the mixes have been over the past two years

Which Dynaudio's did those colleges buy?

 

[NL5]

My opinion - the worst monitor I've ever heard. And I hear the new versions are worse.......

Just my opinion though. But really, a horrible, horrible speaker.....

Just wanted to ad, I'm not saying this to be "kewl" or a gear snob. I had V8's that are supposed to be crap that I liked for the most part, I have a friend who has BX5's and a friend who has HR824's. I'd mix on the BX5's LONG before the Mackies. They just had a weird sound to them. I will say this though, if you like the way they sound, I'm sure you can mix on them fairly well - monitors are a very personal decision.

 

[mrface2112]

a friend has a pair of older 824's in his studio and cranks out spectacular mixes with them. given their age, i have to assume they're the US made ones.

when i bought my Event ASP8s, i also demoed the "newer" (read: chinese) 824's. the chinese 824's were all wrong. bass over-inflated, mids MIA and highs all hyped and strident. there's no way i could mix on those. and they sounded totally different than the 824's i'd heard before. the ASP8s (much like the 824s for Glen) were the right fit for my ears and my room.

honestly, i say for $400, you almost HAVE to do it. they WILL be a significant upgrade to your existing monitors. shit, at $400 i might have to source out a set just to be a contrast to my ASP8's.


cheers,
wade

 

[CoolCat]

well, there's the US original versions...then the US parts assembled in China version...and now the China version MK2...hell I don't know?
I'm still sorting it out.

Will they truly beat the YSM1p's though? those are some nice monitors.. imo.
Kind of like the RNC of compressor land, they hold their own very well.

outsourcing scares me personally. because from my mfg. exp. they DO start chopping away at the original design and sticking cheaper pots and resistors and thinner wire....because they save 2cents a speaker which multiplied adds up...it adds up for the person sticking money in the pocket....

for the buyer it often means a blown speaker, led's that don't work, amplifiers that blow fuses, speakers that crackle snap and pop.

 

[SouthSIDE Glen]

Just wanted to ad, I'm not saying this to be "kewl" or a gear snob.

Nor did I intend to suggest you were one of them, NL. Sorry that things kinda played out chronologically like that in this tread. You said you didn't like their sound, which is different from just writing them off as a joke, and that is a legit opinion.

I'd mix on the BX5's LONG before the Mackies.

See, that's what I'm talking about, and what I saw every day on the sales floor. One person swears by this speaker, another one swears by that one, and never the twain shall meet. I personally don't like the BX5s, they sound like glorified Altec Lansing computer speakers to me, and they have a sound my ears just can't trust. Is either of us right or wrong? We are, in fact, both right for our own situations. Or, as you say:

if you like the way they sound, I'm sure you can mix on them fairly well - monitors are a very personal decision.

--------------------

outsourcing scares me personally. because from my mfg. exp. they DO start chopping away at the original design and sticking cheaper pots and resistors and thinner wire....because they save 2cents a speaker which multiplied adds up...it adds up for the person sticking money in the pocket....

for the buyer it often means a blown speaker, led's that don't work, amplifiers that blow fuses, speakers that crackle snap and pop.

In this case, I think that's over-thinking it a bit; those demos have already been well-tested and in service for some time. Anything defectively manufactured would most likely have shown it's true colors by now. If they've been up there for two or three years, any manufactuing defects would have showed up a long time ago. And you still can check on that manufacturing date. I might also add as an ex-retailer that if I had a lemon pair speakers on display that kept blowing fuses or shorting out or something, I'd replace them with a non-lemon pair ASAP. It sure doesn't serve my business to have bad product on display.

$400 a pair with a 3 month warranty and a return policy? The only question here is where are the car keys? Again, if you don't like them yourself, you can just return them, no harm, no foul and a bit wiser. (though you won't be able to do that on eBay.)

G.

 

[masteringhouse]

Let me ask you, Tom; would you ever even consider using NS-10s for mastering? Then why would anybody want to use them for mixing? As a mixing engineer I am just as concerned about detail in my own way as you are. And while my 824s may not be in the same league as a pair of Elipses, I couldn't afford a pair of Elipses (nor were they even around in '99 ), and the 824s certainly do the job very well for me for their midling price point.

G.

Would I use them for mastering? No, but I know of a local mastering engineer here in Philly who has worked for years that does. There are others as well. Of course I wouldn't use Mackies either

I agree that a good engineer can compensate for whatever character a speaker (or room) has it's just that when something naturally lends itself to a particular type of character, one tends to work that way more naturally than having to compensate internally all of the time.

I've used dynaudios for years, they aren't flat monitors either. There's a dip in the mids on these. I did adjust but constantly felt the need to check elsewhere to ensure that what I thought I was hearing was working elsewhere. It's the main reason that I replaced them.

At the moment I'm a fan of Quested monitors but that may eventually change. They are not everyone's cup of tea, but for me they strike the right balance in the mids that work well for the way that I listen and analyze. When I take a master and play it elsewhere it is what I would expect things to sound like. That's what I look for in a monitor to do my gig. They are also great monitors to listen to music on and I use them for "pleasure listening" as well.

Some like monitors that are flat (I don't know that there really is such a monitor that does this with 100% accuracy in the less than 10K and up range) some like monitors that are a bit "analytical". It's all part of what makes up your character as an engineer, whatever helps you get the job done to your satisfaction.