A1A2
New member
Scooter B said:
Someone has mentioned that the difference between the pres on vlz and xdr is none. It was a marketing hype....I would like to hear someone's first hand experience/comparison.
Al
Someone has mentioned that the difference between the pres on vlz and xdr is none. It was a marketing hype....I would like to hear someone's first hand experience/comparison.
Al
C
chessrock
Banned
Who cares?
Scooter B
New member
That is entirely possible and I don't know from experience I was just passing on the general consencus from the reviews I have read on this site.
Obviously several people on this site that can't afford the high dollar pre-amps you are blessed with.
C
chessrock
Banned
Scooter B said:
We're not talking about high-dollar pres, here. This conversation has now turned in to discussing the merits of the stock pres on a cheapo mixer versus those on a slightly-earlier version. Neither one of which should be out of the reasonable financial range of anyone even remotely above the poverty line. And if that's where you're at, then I say feed your family and buy your kids shoes before you worry about any of that crap.
So who the hell cares?
A1A2
New member
well. chess,
I don't really care, but I do i bought the vlz after you told me there was no difference between them. So, I would care just a little bit if I now find out that I had been lied to nah. j/k It's not like I ma go cry about it and save up for the pro version
Al
I don't really care, but I do
i bought the vlz after you told me there was no difference between them. So, I would care just a little bit if I now find out that I had been lied to nah. j/k It's not like I ma go cry about it and save up for the pro version Al
C
chessrock
Banned
If Mackie's designers were half as skilled as their marketing team, you'd have the best freakin' boards on the planet. They could write a book on this stuff . . .
Chapter one: Make really easy, over-expanative manuals. This will save you customer service depatment millions. Think about it.
Chapter two: Give current owners a reason to "upgrade." DigiDesign is great at this. Find a way to squeeze an extra 0.0001% bit better distortion figures out of your mic pres, maybe change a few components or use a chip that specs out slightly better . . . give it a fancy, technical name like XDR, and tell everyone they have to buy the new boards now.
Chapter three: Exaggerate worth of product. Get celebrity endorsers to say wildly unbelievable things about the quality of your boards. Work out some really sweet endorsement deals with top-name engineers. Tell everyone how professional grade your amazing new preamps are.
Then come out with some plugins with Universal Audio, and tell everyone they sound just like the real LA2A and Pultecs, etc. etc. That's just for bonus points, of course.
Chapter one: Make really easy, over-expanative manuals. This will save you customer service depatment millions. Think about it.
Chapter two: Give current owners a reason to "upgrade." DigiDesign is great at this. Find a way to squeeze an extra 0.0001% bit better distortion figures out of your mic pres, maybe change a few components or use a chip that specs out slightly better . . . give it a fancy, technical name like XDR, and tell everyone they have to buy the new boards now.
Chapter three: Exaggerate worth of product. Get celebrity endorsers to say wildly unbelievable things about the quality of your boards. Work out some really sweet endorsement deals with top-name engineers. Tell everyone how professional grade your amazing new preamps are.
Then come out with some plugins with Universal Audio, and tell everyone they sound just like the real LA2A and Pultecs, etc. etc.
That's just for bonus points, of course.
Scooter B
New member
Chessrock,
My apolgies if I misunderstood but it seemed to me you were implying it did not matter because anything by Mackie would automatically suck or be below acceptable for you.
However several people have asked questions on this issue before this thread and if you really want to know "who cares" use the search buuton and you can compile a list for yourself.
I am not partial to Mackie in particular but for a $349 Mars blow out the 1402 VLZ-Pro sounded like a deal and along with an DMP and a Joe Meek VCQ6 they would be adequate for my non -comercial home recording hobby.
If you can afford $400 -$1,000 per channel pre's I am truely happy for you.
I can't...I gross $65,0000 -$70,000 anually but support a wife, two kids and even with insurance we spend $500 a month in unreimbursed medical expenses. After taxed and benefits I net about 48% before I pay out $500 a month in meds and no one goes to bed hungry or cold.
To me a home recorder is some one persuing a hobby that does not get reimbursed for their recording expenses.
Their are some serious pro's here who may or may not record professionaly at home as well and I am glad thay are here for advice BUT I think it is COMPLETELY ASSININE to expect a hobbiest who will never do this for any type of financial reimbursements to spend the kind of money the comercial operators here do.
If I win the lottery or get an inherantance then maybe but I don't see it happeneing in this life.
I just wish more people here could understand the difference between a home recording hobbiest songwriter and a home studio comercial business when they dispense their opinions on the relative quality of a product.
Well I feel better now
C
chessrock
Banned
Hey, no sweat, Scooter.
I'm glad you got a chance to get that off your chest.
I guess my only question is . . . if this is just a home hobby, and you're not overly serious about this, then again why are you worrying about whether the preamps in said cheap mixer A are any better than those in said cheap mixer B ? ?
And if your answer is going to be "Because I still want to get the best quality possible," then I will again ask you: If this is just a hobby, then why do you care? ?
If you need me to explain it to you, I'll do so: There ain't gonna' be a whole hell of a lot of difference between the whole lot of 'em. There's your answer. And what very small, infintesimal, minute bit of difference some testing equipment might be able to detect out of a pre-XDR and a post XDR preamp is ultimately going to be so small and hair-splittingly minute so as to have almost zero relevence in the overall scheme of your recordings . . . especially if you're just a hobbyist -- in that case, you've probably got areas of your signal chain that, if upgraded, could bring VAST, exponential returns. In comparison, that is.
I'm glad you got a chance to get that off your chest.
I guess my only question is . . . if this is just a home hobby, and you're not overly serious about this, then again why are you worrying about whether the preamps in said cheap mixer A are any better than those in said cheap mixer B ? ?
And if your answer is going to be "Because I still want to get the best quality possible," then I will again ask you: If this is just a hobby, then why do you care? ?
If you need me to explain it to you, I'll do so: There ain't gonna' be a whole hell of a lot of difference between the whole lot of 'em. There's your answer. And what very small, infintesimal, minute bit of difference some testing equipment might be able to detect out of a pre-XDR and a post XDR preamp is ultimately going to be so small and hair-splittingly minute so as to have almost zero relevence in the overall scheme of your recordings . . . especially if you're just a hobbyist -- in that case, you've probably got areas of your signal chain that, if upgraded, could bring VAST, exponential returns. In comparison, that is.
mixmkr
we don't need rest!!
chessrock said:
and for some reason, well, the reasons I believe in, you can include such other things as $150 microphones, cables, Mexican Fender guitars, $400 monitor speakers, $200 reverb units, $500 soundcards, string brands, guitar modelers and stomp boxes, $200 guitar amps, CDr brands...etc etc...
Each item in the above list has many "clones" and/or competitors in its designated field. Which one is better?...the one in the hands of the 'better' user.
However, talking about gear has some relaxational benefits if not wallet lightning effects. If you didn't hang around places that provided info about such items, how would you know that you can buy a MXL603 instead of a Neuman KM184?...and save a couple pennies. I still contest the "average Joe" around here isn't going to be able to put the subtle differences to good use. It IS good to know the differences, but being able to use them to the max is another story.
an analogy... I see people race sailboats all the time and they just SLAVE over the smoothness of the bottoms of the boats....just to gain that extra 1/10th of a percent. Sure..that helps... 1/10th increase over a two hour race can add up. However, ONE SMART TACK and local knowledge will erase all the wizardry that people do to their boats to make them go faster. If they spent more time "doing"(more sailing time) instead of "prepping"(sanding bottoms and spending $$) , they'd probably come out better in the end. I think this theory is applied to recording as well.. But...it is fun to drink a couple of brews and "talk the talk" about what is best. And if you've got an extra $1k or whatever that is burning a hole in your pocket...hey..get a good preamp and get the psyche on overdrive. But, I think a killer song and fingers that can keep time on a fretboard will do much better.
Scooter B
New member
Well now that I have totally hijacked this thread... sorry A1A2.
Why do I care? I am not sweating the difference between differing Mackie pre's (I don't have any buyers remorse) and I don't expect them to sound like an Avalon or Neve and even if I had access to Avalons and Neves most of the people here could make better recording than me with much less. I doubt I could hear a 10-20% improvement between two pre's on a completely pro system.
The answer though is quite obvious to me on why I care.
The less discretionary money one has the more careful they are in spending it.
When I first bought my four track cassette I blindly tried to improve my terrible sounding recordings by buying serveral things at pawn shops in a small town in Texas. I did not have a computer or internet access and I was flying blind and buying blind.
I bought two Alesis 3630's, an Alesis Stereo 31 band graphic EQ (I needed EQ right?) and I only had 1 microphone (SM 57) and the only preamps I had were in the four track.
As I was living in an apartment I planned on doing everything direct except the vocals.
My monitors I thought were a version of the Yamaha NS-10s what I actually had was some Yamaha "Hot Spot" stage monitors with NS 10 mixed in the model number and I had never seen NS-10's.
Well if you can pick yourself off the floor from laughing ...you can imagine how bad my mixes were when played on other systems.
At this point I quit recording and found this site and read like crazy. I started mixing in some mic'd drum machine sounds going through an amp in the bathroom with the DI drum machine and it added alot "live room" vibe its not great but it is definitely much better.
Before I found this site I also sold a better sounding acoustic guitar with no built in pickup for a cheaper Takamine that had a built in pick up before I came here cause I thought I could DI everything.
Now after scrimping lunch money and the occasional $50 or $100 bonus I have aquired.
1 MXL V67M ($99)
2 Oktava MC-012 ($99)
1 DMP 3 ($199)
1 Mackie 1402 (with the VLZ marketing upgrade $349)
1 Behringer V-amp II ($129 - $10 Mars cash back rebate)
1 Behringer Composer Pro ($79)
1 Behringer Headphone Amp ($79)
1 Neutrick 48 pt balanced Patch bay ($99)
1 RNC
1 Joe Meek VCQ6 ($199)
Alesis Monitor Ones (traded old Peavey bass amp for)
And now finally after of year of no other purchases I have a Yamaha AW16G (under $1,000) and I am planning on getting back in recording and applying what I have learned.
Hey I work hard for my money and it is even harder to save it for musical purchases.
Why do I care?
I want to make educated decisions and not buy used 3630's when I can get a new RNC for the same price.
There are still a few realistic things on the wish list all under $200 - $400 that with some work and experience will enable me to make some decent quality demos, make some MP3's and burn some CD's.
If I want to do a demo for an up and coming local band for free becuase I like their music and want to add to their and my creative experiences then I can.
What I don't want to do is record for any reason other than creative artistic enjoyment.
I don't want to work with music that does not inspire me.
I don't want do this for a living.....I don't want to sacrifice enjoyment for needing to make money. I have a busy rewarding career already.
I don't want to be desperate to pay for that new gear and have to work with personalities that just are not worth working with (to me) for personal or artisitc reasons.
Right now I am only able to record in my bedroom and the attached bathroom. The difference between an RNC and an Alesis 3630 will probably be evident ....the difference between micing a cheap Takamine with my MXL's and Octava's in my bedroom versus using a Neve or Avalon and an U-87 is not going to show up in my bedroom with my guitar but what I have now versus then sounds alot better than using my Piezo pickup through a SansAmp Bass Driver DI being mixed on "Hot Spot" stage monitors.
I think it is pretty obvious why people care and there are some good bangs for the buck for the hobiest out there and there are some 100% wastes of money.
I sold both Alesis 3630's for $50 and bought 1/2 priced balanced Monster cable patch cords at Mars.
Everyone here is looking to make educated decision at their price point.
The tighter your money the more you research before you buy and especially after you have bought some lemons.
C
chessrock
Banned
Well, Scooter, I'm going to play shrink now and share with you an observation:
Based on all that you have just said . . . it sounds to me like this indeed is not "just a hobby" to you. In fact, my guess is that there is a certain degree of passion you have invested in this. And I don't understand why you can't just admit this to yourself. But go ahead . . . it's okay. Deep down, you are very passionate about recording and that's cool.
I'll bet you think about it while you're at work. Your wife probably tries to talk to you sometimes about her day, and meanwhile, you're head is drifting off somewhere contemplating mic pres or a/d converters as you try to listen. I do the same thing with my girlfriend.
You've done some meticulous research on this stuff, and you've made some wise purchases. Your mic pres are just fine. Anyone who really pays attention on these boards should have decent mic pres by now. You won't hear a vast amount of difference between a Mackie and a Sytek or a dmp3 and an RNP, so I don't see how you're gonna' hear a big difference between a Mackie pre XDR and a post XDR.
My suggestion would be to try and turn your mind away from the recording gear for a bit and maybe focus on room treatment . . . or perhaps look at getting some good instruments and/or amps for recording (nothing against the V-amp, but . . .). Are you confident with your knowlege of audio and your mixing skills? That's going to be your most important asset. How are your monitors doing for you, and do you feel like your monitoring environment gives you an accurate and translatable reference point for your mixes?
These are the things you should care about.
Based on all that you have just said . . . it sounds to me like this indeed is not "just a hobby" to you. In fact, my guess is that there is a certain degree of passion you have invested in this. And I don't understand why you can't just admit this to yourself.
But go ahead . . . it's okay. Deep down, you are very passionate about recording and that's cool.I'll bet you think about it while you're at work. Your wife probably tries to talk to you sometimes about her day, and meanwhile, you're head is drifting off somewhere contemplating mic pres or a/d converters as you try to listen.
I do the same thing with my girlfriend.You've done some meticulous research on this stuff, and you've made some wise purchases. Your mic pres are just fine. Anyone who really pays attention on these boards should have decent mic pres by now. You won't hear a vast amount of difference between a Mackie and a Sytek or a dmp3 and an RNP, so I don't see how you're gonna' hear a big difference between a Mackie pre XDR and a post XDR.
My suggestion would be to try and turn your mind away from the recording gear for a bit and maybe focus on room treatment . . . or perhaps look at getting some good instruments and/or amps for recording (nothing against the V-amp, but . . .). Are you confident with your knowlege of audio and your mixing skills? That's going to be your most important asset. How are your monitors doing for you, and do you feel like your monitoring environment gives you an accurate and translatable reference point for your mixes?
These are the things you should care about.
L
littledog
New member
Just because it's a hobby, why does that mean you can't be passionate about it? I know plenty of people who are totally obsessed with their hobbies: skiing, biking, golf, tennis, scuba diving, chess, bridge, and yes, even music. Most of them have no illusions about becoming professional skiers, bikers, golfers, musicians, etc.
That doesn't make their passion any less real.
As a pro, I know it's easy to get impatient answering the same entry-level questins and dealing with the same repeated misconceptions born out of inexperience over and over again. That's why when i find myself getting overly impatient and sarcastic, i take a break from the homerecording board for a while and hang with other pros on some of the higher end forums.
But it's cool to feel like you are genuinely helping people too. So I always come back from time to time. To be honest, I could care less which $100 preamp sounds better than other $100 preamps, but I can also remember back to the time when I was asking the same questions.
Sorry if all this is completely irrelevent to this thread!
That doesn't make their passion any less real.
As a pro, I know it's easy to get impatient answering the same entry-level questins and dealing with the same repeated misconceptions born out of inexperience over and over again. That's why when i find myself getting overly impatient and sarcastic, i take a break from the homerecording board for a while and hang with other pros on some of the higher end forums.
But it's cool to feel like you are genuinely helping people too. So I always come back from time to time. To be honest, I could care less which $100 preamp sounds better than other $100 preamps, but I can also remember back to the time when I was asking the same questions.
Sorry if all this is completely irrelevent to this thread!
A1A2
New member
Well now that I have totally hijacked this thread... sorry A1A2.
no, that's cool. I enjoy reading where this conversation is going
I'm sure many others, too.
Al
no, that's cool. I enjoy reading where this conversation is going
I'm sure many others, too. Al
Scooter B
New member
Chessrock,
What Littledog said.
I would not pursue a hobby if I was not passionate about it.
I don't quite get the mutual exclusion assumption here.
Also I agree 100% with everything you said in the last post on recordist getting more improvement by focussing on technique, room placement etc.
Right now though my music room is my bedroom ( and my wifes passion is interior design) room treatments that would not make it in a desing home won't fly in my bedroom. As passionate as I am about learning more about recording and audio there are more important things happening in my bedroom when I keep my wife reasonably happy.
I know the V-Amp is a couple steps below a cheap Peavey but I am primarily a bass player and I have some good equipment there...if I really wan't to get a killer guitar part down I won't be playing it or using my guitar gear. My 68 Tele may get some action but I don't even own a guitar amp right now.
In another two years we will be finacnially able to move to a larger house with a seperate room for my musical stuff, my kids will be older and I can do some room treatment stuff.
Right now with my room and family limitations I can read more than I can record and I can research adn pick up a few things here and there when they are on sale etc.
I have absolutely no disagreement with you about any potentail differences in cheap pre A and cheap pre B being inperceptale to my untrained ears on Alesis M 1's.
My frustration is with many of the pro's slamming any newbies interests in getting into recording if they can't cough up $2,000 or $3,000 for mic pre's
What Littledog said.
I would not pursue a hobby if I was not passionate about it.
I don't quite get the mutual exclusion assumption here.
Also I agree 100% with everything you said in the last post on recordist getting more improvement by focussing on technique, room placement etc.
Right now though my music room is my bedroom ( and my wifes passion is interior design) room treatments that would not make it in a desing home won't fly in my bedroom. As passionate as I am about learning more about recording and audio there are more important things happening in my bedroom when I keep my wife reasonably happy.
I know the V-Amp is a couple steps below a cheap Peavey but I am primarily a bass player and I have some good equipment there...if I really wan't to get a killer guitar part down I won't be playing it or using my guitar gear. My 68 Tele may get some action but I don't even own a guitar amp right now.
In another two years we will be finacnially able to move to a larger house with a seperate room for my musical stuff, my kids will be older and I can do some room treatment stuff.
Right now with my room and family limitations I can read more than I can record and I can research adn pick up a few things here and there when they are on sale etc.
I have absolutely no disagreement with you about any potentail differences in cheap pre A and cheap pre B being inperceptale to my untrained ears on Alesis M 1's.
My frustration is with many of the pro's slamming any newbies interests in getting into recording if they can't cough up $2,000 or $3,000 for mic pre's
L
littledog
New member
Scooter B said:
That is a dangerous and inflammatory statement that will simply not be tolerated here at homerec. Imagine, something more important than recording!
Although I might reconsider if you'd be willing to post some pictures, or perhaps a video clip!
C
chessrock
Banned
Scooter B said:
Hey Littledog, scatch that pictures idea. I don't think we want to even go there.
Scooter B
New member
You guys just made my day LOL.....
Back to the original hijacked topic thread.
A similar question on hobby versus profession came up at studio forums and this quote (not mine) was most profound and gets my 68 Tele out of the rumor mill.
posted 11-12-03 03:29 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
A hobbyist's studio is paid for by the hobbyist. A professional's studio is paid for by their clients. A professional's wife wouldn't have to complain about the money spent whereas a hobbyist's wife can only complain about all the money being spent.
Any questions?
Thanks for the laugh guys.
Back to the original hijacked topic thread.
A similar question on hobby versus profession came up at studio forums and this quote (not mine) was most profound and gets my 68 Tele out of the rumor mill.
posted 11-12-03 03:29 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
A hobbyist's studio is paid for by the hobbyist. A professional's studio is paid for by their clients. A professional's wife wouldn't have to complain about the money spent whereas a hobbyist's wife can only complain about all the money being spent.
Any questions?
Thanks for the laugh guys.