M AUDIO sucks! Not my words btw..

  • Thread starter Thread starter Janic
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If you find any WDM application that does not experience this problem, then you should tell us right away! I'm pretty sure we've narrowed it down to either m-Audio or WDM itself, though, which means it would be a global problem across all applications.

Slackmaster 2000
 
ok slack... here is my test and my results

i had a track in sampltude recorded, then i recorded on track 2 what was on track one... i played track 1 through outputs 1/2 of my delta 44 and then through my mixer and then through the outs of the mixer to the inputer 3/4 on the 44... i zoomed up on the recorded .wav file many times and then measured the difference in the tracks: 0.005ms

and this was through my mixer... had i patched it straight from the out to the in this may have been smaller... did i so something wrong maybe?
 
and the 0.005ms is with stuff running in the background too (AVG anti virus, zone alarm, MBM5, kazaalite, msn messenger...)
 
0.005 ms? Are you sure you don't mean 0.005 seconds. I've never seen an app allow you to zoom in to .000005 seconds. At 44.1 KHz you get about 44 samples per ms, or 4.4 samples per .1 ms, or .44 samples per .01 ms. In other words, the offset you are claiming seems unlikely because it is much less than 1 sample.

A 5ms offset, which is probably what you actually saw, would be consistent with using the wdm drivers with a small buffer - 64 or 128 samples.
 
samplitude has a nice zoom...

the section i highlighted was 19.151ms to 19.156ms.... hence the 0.005ms difference... the section highlighted started at where the original file had a very distinguisable peak and ended where the recorded file had the same peak... and i can zoom more:) i love samplitude...
 
Hey Lucid...
I haven't used Samplitude for a long time.
Please ensure you do the test at 44.1kz. 96khz will more than halve the time in ms to begin with.
Is Samplitude using ASIO? You must use Direct Sound driver.
What is the setting of the buffer in the delta card control panel?
Can you change the time display to samples instead of time?
Erm... You are running WDM drivers on the Delta - not Win9X ones?


bdemenil...
I don't know why our analog results are differant either. The 123 samples I got for analog is suspiciously small.
More testing!
 
i was using 44.1....

not ASIO, WDM

DMA Buffer Size (in m-audio control panel)= 3 ms

i did change to samples... 0.193 samples off

WDM drivers, winxp
 
Lucid, you are doing something wrong because that result is not achievable on *any* system.

Post a screen shot. Mostly likey you are talking about 5ms, which is still higher than the 1+ms you'd get with ASIO (for instance).

Also, the real test is to then crank those delta buffers up and see if your offset increases.

Slackmaster 2000
 
In fact, it's impossible to be a fraction of a sample off, because nothing exists between samples!

Slackmaster 2000
 
this is very interesting to me to hear that people are having problems with WDM. When i run my two delta 44's together, is ASIO i cant get to work. I have been forced to use cakewalk sonar. That doesnt mean there isnt a problem in sonar infact im sure there is. Im sure the two cards are off sync by a bit but its not as noticeable as when i do it in ASIO using Nuendo. After about 2 minutes of playing in anything ASIO i get extreme pops and distortion, where anything besides ASIO has no problem. However, when i take one of the cards out of the computer, i have no problems with the pops and clicks and distortion in nuendo, infact i can get it to buffer at 128 (3 milli delay 44.1) without a single problem. infact ive been using it to run 4 channels of effects in live shows too, using my Waves Compressers and my 4080l reverb. Works great without a single problem, but only as long as i only have the one card in, and i have tested this time and time again.

BTW, just thought id mention that it is possible to use computer effects in live shows. Infact it has worked great. But make sure you have a great running and stable computer and can garuantee no flaws. I ran 4 RCL compressers with gates and a Timeworks 4080l reverb for a couple 3 hour sessions without problem. Has also worked good with GM pencil and paper RPG games. Players in the recording room each with a mike, and me as GM in the console room. I can apply effects to my voice and reverb to make it sound like its in a room. Its been awesome :D.

Later, gotta get to jazz band.

Danny
 
Note that the two card driver problem isn't really a "WDM" problem like the track offset problem. That's why we should continue the WDM problem down in the WDM thread I think.

The two card problem would really make me mad, I feel for ya.

Slackmaster 2000
 
lucid said:
i did change to samples... 0.193 samples off
[/B]
Click to expand...

Like Slack just said. It's not possible to have such an offset. The only thing that could happen is that you'd get a zero sample offset, but that the duplicate track would be slightly distorted - making it appear offset by a fraction of a sample. But you can rest assured that this is not the case. If there's one thing Maudio is perfectly clear on, it's that 0 offset is not something the Delta is currently capable of.
 
ok now i feel stupid...

it's 4ms... or 193 samples off... i am beginning to not like m-audio


4ms is pretty damn close though right? can most people tell that there is something a little off?
 
Pretty close to what?

10ms is about the time required for your ear to hear two distinct sounds. Can a 4ms offset have a major impact on your recordings if you're layering a lot of tracks? I wouldn't say major, no, but some impact quite possibly....and of course it's always best to be in control of the things that can have an impact on your sound.

Another thing to consider is outboard effects. Think about delay's and reverbs, to which you're basically adding a 4ms predelay, which is quite a lot when you're fine tuning! It's something you can always adjust for, but you need to be aware of it.

Then, if you ever have to crank your buffers up for any reason and you forget to reset them, you can definately run into problems. I used to switch between ASIO and WDM apps and I like the ASIO performance I get from a 2048 sample buffer. Well, when I'd switch back to WDM and forget to reset the delta buffer, suddenly I was contending with a 50ms offset!! Ouch.

Using ASIO, your track offset will always be about a millisecond. Yeah that's only a 3 millisecond difference in your case, but its four times better.

So anyways, for most of us this problem hasn't been a show stopper, but it is a problem, and it's somebody's fault! The trick is finding out just who's fault it is and getting them to fix it.

Slackmaster 2000
 
lucid said:
samplitude has a nice zoom...

the section i highlighted was 19.151ms to 19.156ms.... hence the 0.005ms difference... the section highlighted started at where the original file had a very distinguisable peak and ended where the recorded file had the same peak... and i can zoom more:) i love samplitude...
Click to expand...

hey Lucid I was confused when I first did the test in samp too.. thats not nineteen and one-hundred fifty-one thousandths (as the point might suggest)... thats nineteen-thousand one-hundred and fifty-one... so the difference there is 5ms according to your figures...

I dunno if that is acutally a point or a comma that looks like a point but it confused me for awhile... those damn germans using points where commas should be
 
slack: thanks for the info. i meant pretty close to the preceding track. luckily i have no outboard effects! do you anticipate that this problem will be fixed any time soon? you said it might be a WDM problem, but no other cards that use WDM in WDM apps have problems right?

jdechant: samplitude told me it was 4ms... in the highlighted bit it says the start and stop points, but it also says length, and that was 4ms...
 
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