M-Audio SP5B Monitors for 1st Studio?

  • Thread starter Thread starter JazzGtr
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So, to sum up the advice, for newbies...

* tighten up the bass by placing foam pads underneath

* raise the bass level by placing your monitors closer to a
reflective wall (a foot or less can mean a rather big boost)

* then, before mixing, listen to some favorite, well-recorded
pro CDs through your monitors, and really get to know
the balance that you're targeting (so that your own mixes will
transfer well to other systems)

* and for BX5 owners... be sure to try the *acoustic space* switch on the back. Two of the settings will subtly lower the mids and highs so that the bass will be more prominent in your mix.

Simple, eh?

J.
 
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I would add one more thing for newbies. Run a test burn and play it in the car. You will learn a lot about how your monitors and what freq. ranges are being over/under revealed as a result.
 
Middleman said:

Standing waves would be bass heavy areas in the room that you would not want to use for mixing. I don't have alot of these with the foam I have put up.
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Uh, sorry. But standing waves can also cause areas where the bass cancels and drops out. Also, foam won't help you too much with the bass because it doesn't have enough density. You'd need to build some bass traps to get rid of standing waves the in the bass frequencies.
 
Dethska said:
Uh, sorry. But standing waves can also cause areas where the bass cancels and drops out. Also, foam won't help you too much with the bass because it doesn't have enough density. You'd need to build some bass traps to get rid of standing waves the in the bass frequencies.
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Don't know why you’re sorry. I don't think your comments negate what I was saying. The discussion was about how to use the SP5Bs and where to monitor the bass.

I think I know my room well enough to know where the blank spots and the build up areas are and I use that to my advantage. The foam can help make the bass prominent, not clear, but in and of itself is not a resolution for what a trap can do I agree.

Every room is different so its hard to give specific advice on foam and traps.
 
Check out the recent Auralex foam pad review in the recent (September?) Recording magazine. The reviewers found quite a difference in the quality of bass response in many of their bench tests by simply adding $29 dense-foam pads. Interesting.

J.
 
Middleman said:
Don't know why you’re sorry. I don't think your comments negate what I was saying. The discussion was about how to use the SP5Bs and where to monitor the bass.

I think I know my room well enough to know where the blank spots and the build up areas are and I use that to my advantage. The foam can help make the bass prominent, not clear, but in and of itself is not a resolution for what a trap can do I agree.

Every room is different so its hard to give specific advice on foam and traps.
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It sounded like you were saying standing waves only cause areas where bass is increased. I agree that knowing your room is a good way to go, but it seems to me that if you started with a room with flat response, it would make life much easier.

Alas, I do know that a flat response isn't cheap. So I guess I see where you are coming from. :cool:
 
I use my 5b's as realtime monitors for my keyboard - thus helping avoid audio and VSTi latency issues when tracking. They're also (1) backups for my passive Monitor-Ones, and (2) my keyboard "stand" - I balance the keys on top of the 5bs, giving me a space on the desk underneath for my cpu keyboard and K-Station. and a good stand-n-play height.

I like the sound, but trying to set a bass level would make me crazy --- not that the monitor-ones are much good in that regard either.

And I love that blue light!!!

:D

Daf
 
Middleman-
I'm still not sure if I get the moving to the side thing. Isn't 90Hz a big enough wave form to bend around the speakers (it would bounce off the wall too) and spread through out the room? Let's just say that you did have a standing wave of around 90-100Hz. 5 feet would be about the distance that the dead spots would be from the built up spots. I'm not saying that that is the case but it sounds reasonable to me. I'm right and you're wrong is basically where I am going....No I'm just kidding...........just throwing ideas out. Thanks
 
Yeah, I guess I should clarify the 5 ft thing. That is for my room not yours.

Here is what I have discovered with these speakers.

In the sweet spot I get the mix to sound exactly like I want. If I burn that with no mastering and take it to my car, the bass is enormous and the mid-range is nowhere to be found. The highs seem to be OK. Nearly the same results for the home stereo however, this has a subwoofer and the lo frequencies are, well lets just say my wife thinks there is an earthquake going on.

This tells me that the speakers are lacking on the lo end and a little too strong in the midrange. The reason being that I am adding too much bass and cutting the midrange because the speakers are hot in that range.

If I move back and off to one side where the bass is bouncing off the wall behind the speakers I can hear that the bass is there and loud. This is something you can't tell from the sweet spot. In my room this location is about 5 feet back to one side. I mix the lo end from that position however on occasion it’s still not enough.

I have learned to compensate for these issues in mastering by setting a 40 Hz highpass to roll off the excessive bass and use a broad 2db bump at 4 KHz to fatten up the midrange. This with some mastering compression and limiting has provided good results.

I know these speakers now, and all their little quirks, but when I step up I am going to take these with me to compare. I will be looking for something a little less mid-range hot and with more bass response, or I am going to get a subwoofer.

I always go to the next room and listen for the transients too, prior to finishing.
 
middleman - frequencies below 100hz are non directional which is why you can have a sub sitting under your desk yet still hear it. In fact if I was to hide a sub in your room you probably couldn't find it because its non directional.

So if you have to move 5 feet to the side to hear the sub bass I suspect you have phase cancellation going on at your mix position. Foam will do nothing to low end reflections - you need traps to stop those.

I suggest you check out the studios under construction site
http://johnlsayers.com/Studio/index.htm
and read what effect proper soffit mounting and correct room treatment does to the sound of your monitors.

start with Blue Bear and Sonar and read the reaction to the new sound.

cheers
john
 
On a pure physics level I agree with the non-directional statement however when the low frequncies are being ported out of of a 2 inch hole on the back of a monitor, it is very directional for a short time. Here is a diagram so you know. The port on these monitors is not out the front like other brands.

Regarding traps, in this case, I don't want one. I need to hear the bounce off the wall.

Here is a diagram so you know what's going on here.

Nice site though. Thanks for the link.
 

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Another point, I don't think its phase cancellation because when I hit the mono switch the lo end does not increase. I think it's just that there is not much lo end being projected out of these 5 inch speaker boxes and the little that is, is going out the back at such a low volume level that to hear it you need move around.

Not an issue with more expensive monitors.

MM
 
Actually the smaller the hole the less directional it is. Getting into the physics of it, if the wavelength is bigger than the hole, then it will spread out in all directions after it goes through the hole. The speaker was designed so that at whatever frequency the hole is tuned to, bends around the speaker and is in phase with what is comming out from the front.
 
Regarding traps, in this case, I don't want one. I need to hear the bounce off the wall.
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mate - it's the bounce off the wall that is causing the cancelation - unfortunately you can't describe the pressure gradient of low frequencies by lines with arrow heads. ;)

cheers
john
 
Well I am no speaker physics expert but I know these things are severely challenged when it comes to hearing the bass accurately. I am not doing music that requires low low rumble so they work for me.

So if you are looking for a good set of starter monitors these aren't bad. If you’re looking for a real studio experience, don't stop here go straight to some Mackies or Genelecs.

My comments regarding mixing out of the nearfield are work arounds I have found for getting better mixes on these.

I would make one recommendation though in parting, if you can afford the SP8Bs or the new version of them, you might be happier overall.
 
John Sayers said:
mate - it's the bounce off the wall that is causing the cancelation - unfortunately you can't describe the pressure gradient of low frequencies by lines with arrow heads. ;)

cheers
john
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John, I appreciate your technical knowledge but that is not the case here. I never indicated I had phase cancellation, you did.

These are 5 inch speakers guys, not a lot of bass there in the first place.
 
I also am intrigued by this discussion. I am aware that Mr. Sayers is a recognized, well credentialed expert in room acoustics and studio design, but what you are saying, sir, with *all* due respect, does not seem to square with the empirical, real world experience of multiple people, including myself, who use these speakers. That means to me that either I don't understand what you are saying, or there is something about these speakers that is quite unusual.
Now, I am neither contradicting Mr. Sayers or the physical laws of the universe. I am only expressing that, like virtually every other user of these speakers, I can hear lots of deep, rich bass behind them, and virtually none of it in front of them. Now I have not found it useful to review tracks from the side or rear, as this takes me out of the near field, and I lose high end detail. I have found, however, that putting a relatively hard reflective surface, such as 3" of aircraft plywood about 8" behind these speakers changes that situation obviously and dramatically.
I am having problems rationalizing the apparent contradiction. OK, very low frequencies are not directional, but any empirical observation indicates that lots of bass is coming out of the rear ports on these puppies, and it is *not* going forward. I don't know if phase cancellation is going to explain this phenomenon, as this observation seems pretty much universal to people who use these speakers, including myself. Well, keep it coming. I find the discussion quite intriguing.-Richie
 
a relatively hard reflective surface, such as 3" of aircraft plywood about 8" behind these speakers changes that situation obviously and dramatically.
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Great tip. I have foam on the wall behind my speakers. I will have to try this.
 
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JazzGtr said:
I'm going to pass on the set I found because the owner says that they make "farting" noises in the mid bass ranges. I think I'll wait until I found a deal on some BX-5s.

Thank you for your help.
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:D
Sorry to qoute back this far but.. I read this in my office after a very annoying meeting and it made me laugh out loud by myself like an idiot.

Space
 
Richard, my experience with my BX5s matches yours exactly. In fact, the little manual that came with my speakers presents the same argument while explaining monitor placement and use of the acoustic space switches to compensate for these low frequencies. Science aside, I simply tried my monitors in the middle of my studio, with no walls nearby, and then moved them less than a foot from a wall. What a difference! As you mentioned, the bass is clear, deep, and present when listening to my reference CDs--not as much as via my home stereo, which has a sub, but well represented and well balanced with the highs. Once I became accustomed to hearing my reference CDs through these puppies--knowing the monitors' capabilities and minitations (clear bass, but no room rattling freqs)--I was able to mix my own music so that it transfered well to my home stereo, car stereo, boom box, and walkman. But my point is this: placement close to a hard, reflective surface, helped my monitors' low-end response a great deal, as did some damping foam underneath. Now, I much prefer my BX5s to the much larger, powered Alesis Ones that I used prior. That says a lot for these little BX5s. Sure, they
probably won't compare to some Mackies or Genelec, which I haven't tried in my studio, but IMHO, their price, size, and response is superb, all things considered.

And I, too, find this whole discussion interesting and helpful. Thanks to all who've shared thoughts.

J.
 
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