m-Audio Audiophile USB problem

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mrx

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With an m-Audio Audiophile USB audio interface attached to my laptop, the windows audio mixer no longer appears (I get the 'reinstall mixer' message that appears to be pretty common, but no help is offered from Microsoft or the vendor.)

The interface plays back audio, but the problem is there's no way to set recording level - in Sound Forge and n-Track it records, but very low, yet in Cake Pro Audio 9 arming a track for record causes the Cake mixer VU meter to pin at maximum level and nothing records.

Any ideas? Thanks!
 
Don't know what the problem is, but generally the input levels are not set by the mixer anyway - they are controlled by your pre-amp. The mixer only allows you to monitor the input level.

You should be able to measure the input levels using the meters in PA9, and adjust your pre-amp accordingly.

(PA9 does have recording input meters, right? I forget.)
 
Thanks for the reply. See my disgusted full response to this thing in the n-Track forum.

Short version is that the Event Gina in my desktop has a comprehensive mixing applet that allows setting of input levels - m-Audio requires a preamp. Thing's still a piece of crap that's getting returned this morning.
 
It's not a "piece of crap"... you didn't take the time to research desktop recording very much up front, and you over-reacted when it didn't work the way your unprepared mind expected it to.

While we're on the subject, the Gina also has line level inputs only just like the Audiophile -- it most certainly requires a preamp in front of it for microphones.

First time you try to use a mic and can't get a good level, are you going to rip the Gina out too and try something else
 
The long and the short of it...

Computer recording is digital. In order to accomplish digital recording, an analog signal (e.g, mic, guitar, bass) must be digitized. That is the job of the sound card. The sound card takes the analog signal and converts it to a digital signal, which can then be captured and saved to your hard drive.

The sound card simply digitizes whatever analog signal is presented to it. With the caveat that if the analog signal hits 0db or higher, there is no way to digitally represent it, and the signal gets truncated, or clipped (aka digital distortion).

Therefore, the level of the signal needs to be controlled BEFORE it hits the sound card, since the sound card will simply digitize whatever signal level it is presented with.

In the case of a microphone, it is the pre-amp which controls that level. In the case of a guitar, it will be a POD or something similar (which, in essence, is another form of a pre-amp).

Therefore, the bottom line is that whatever sound card you are using, the level of the signal will be controlled by the upstream, analog equipment.

The exception to this will be if you are connected to a "mic in" port on a cheap sound card. In this case, the sound card will have a pre-amp built into it, to raise the level of the mic signal to line level. However, it almost all cases it will be an el cheapo pre-amp, and will result in a poor recording.

I'm not a fan of USB interfaces, however, that is not your problem in this case. You seem to lack an understanding of how the process works. Hope this helps a bit.
 
AlChuck said:
It's not a "piece of crap"... you didn't take the time to research desktop recording very much up front, and you over-reacted when it didn't work the way your unprepared mind expected it to.

While we're on the subject, the Gina also has line level inputs only just like the Audiophile -- it most certainly requires a preamp in front of it for microphones.

First time you try to use a mic and can't get a good level, are you going to rip the Gina out too and try something else
Click to expand...

First off, who said anything about a microphone? This is a line level signal. Second, the Event applet most certainly allows control of the input level - just like the Windows mixer.

And please don't assume I didn't "research desktop recording" - I've been working this stuff since the first version of SAW.

The m-Audio/Cake combination had a problem with the internal sound card in the computer - perhaps obvious, but it seems anyone using a UBS audio interface is probably using a laptop, most of which use the same onboard Yamaha sound chip. One would think such a potential problem would be documented up front.

The application was very simple - 2 tracks of MIDI with a single acouctic guitar (Tak) audio track. I even recorded at 22KHz to reduce load. Once the above issue were resolved I was able to record one song - sound was a bit muffled, but I wrote off to the 22K. Moved on to the next tune - exactly the same scenario, except this time the recorded audio sounded like an amp with a blown speaker.

Running out of time, I traded in the m-Audio for solution better suited this application and everything's fine.
 
At the risk of getting acused of bumping, I thought I'd forward the gist if m-Audio's response to the issue:

The main culprit was assumed to be Windows Service Pack level. That would be my fault for not specifiying in the initial case, but it had nothing to do with the problem as the SP was correct.

The next assumption was that the Audiophile USB disables the internal sound card (it doesn't).

I'm not beating on m-Audio, as I use many of their products, but hopefully these tips will help the next person in this position:

1) Disable any internal sound hardware from windows device manager. Failure to do so will cause the Audiophile to fail in Cakewalk.

2) The Audiophile USB does not include a mixer applet, and throws an error when attempting to access volume controls in Windows control panel. This is normal behavior, but undocumented.

3) The documentation is unreliable, referrng to metering in the configuration applet, where there is none, and referencing diagrams, screen shots, etc. that do not exist.

4) The levels are very low, requiring a pre amp for any application. A Takamine cranked up barely registered a signal.

Good luck!
 
Mrx,

Thanks for the info.

I think what Dachay was trying to say in his response is correct.

Any mixer applet is modifying data which has already undergone conversion from analogue to digital via the sound card. Hence, Dachay is correct in what he says and you are also correct in saying that the volume level is turned down.

What you are missing is that the turned down level resulting from lowering the input signal at the mixer applet level merely results in lowering the level of the already clipped or truncated signal. Yes it sounds lower in volume, but yes it is also potentially peaked and will still cause nasty digital distortion.

You can't get around the fact that the signal flow goes from your sound source in the analogue domain, hits the sound card for conversion into digital and is then passed over to the mixer applet. If there were signal spikes over the 0dB level then these will have been truncated or clipped by your sound cards A/D convertor prior to the signal being turned down in level.

So said, I understand the difference in build quality that you are describing here. Even with outboard gear, I still like to tweak away at my "mixer" interface for my sound card => I can't believe it was shipped in the format you relate.

Version 1.0?

:) Q.
 
Hi Q,

I need to check this on my Event card again, but I recall that there was significant volume control in the applet, as if it was affecting the signal at the analog stage. Could just be the m-Audio hardware was severely attenuating the analog prior to conversion.

(I got another response from m-Audio regarding the mistakes in their manual, and the fact that the same setup worked on song, and not the second. They essentially said this was all due to a PC and the "low end of specs" - has to be the first time a customer's hardware affected a vendors documentation!)

MRX
 
Perhaps the confusion arises over the fact that there are some sound cards that have built-in preamps. I checked out the specs for the Echo Mona, for example, and they state:
4 high quality mic preamps with phantom power(+48v)
Click to expand...

In that case, the mixing applet very well might control input levels - because it has access to the pre-amps which are built into the sound card.

What I told you above remains correct - the input level is controlled by the analog equipment prior to the digitizing of the signal. In some cases, however, this might be included with the sound card.

I checked out the Audiophile USB, and its specs indicate the inputs require a Line Level signal. Therefore you will need an external preamp (or similar device) to bring your input signal(s) up to Line Level.
 
Exactly.

I'm sure that the Audiophile is a great product. My experience is that there are basically two types of users dealing with computer technology (not just music, but engineering, healthcare, etc.) The first group has trouble with the concept of associating mouse movement with screen input - no slight intended, just people coming from different backgrounds trying to deal with a whole new way of working.

The other group tends to be comfortable with the basic concepts, and only goes to the manual when something "out of the ordinary" happens. When I was writing doc, I'd always keep a collection of questions from "experienced" users, as they would always make for the best troubleshooting content. On this score, I feel that m-Audio's documentation falls short.

(It's great to see that people can still, dare I say, "argue", on this board without someone getting offended and pulling the plug - thanks everyone for your thoughts and input on this issue!)
 
Good observation - and quite true!

I am running an Aardvark Direct Pro 24/96 which has a fairly full-blown "mixer" applet which also includes access to a range of on card DSP effects for reverb, EQ and compression.

It is supposed to feature a 0msec on the ATTACK parameter for the compressor. I couldn't understand why I was still getting peaks in my signal......... When you zoomed in and looked at the recorded signal you could see a definate clip occuring.

Using external compression has radically changed the tracking equation.

:) Q.

=> But hey, what the hell did I expect for $USD300 - Electric Ladyland in a box? Yep - you betcha! ;)
 
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