Long Live Analog!

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altruistica

altruistica

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So, a couple of months ago I decided I was going to have a clearout....I'm working on my first musical (First Act completed ...Yippee!) and decided I didn't have time to tinker with the TASCAM MS-16 and the analogue desks were taking up too much room. Well, I've sold a few desks to make room, but the lure of another MS-16 on Ebay with remote and low hours was too much of a draw so I bought it. Now, when I am ready to start the guitars /drums albums, at least I'll have a spare machine if one goes down. But that's not the reason for this post.
I've just been watching Dave Grohl's videos on YouTube about the making of a Foo Fighter's album a couple of years ago and he went back to tape. He mentions a 'Sound City' film he made which I've yet to watch, but in routinely searching the interent for info on the MS-16, I came across this:

Endless Analog

Although I realise this will probably be only of interest to high-end studios, the technology involved seems really interesting and may mean a resurgence in recording to tape.

Al
 
You really must check out that Dave Grohl 'Sound City' documentary. Essential viewing for anyone on here interested in analogue (plus music lovers in general). ENJOY!
 
I'm not a big fan of Clasp... not much reason for it in most cases, but hey if it increases the demand for tape that could be a good side effect.

and I still haven't found 'Sound City.' Last I heard it was in the works... more like a concept but nothing done yet. if you have a link share it with us.
 
"Sound City"...the movie....has been on several times in recent weeks. I think someone posted it was on 3 times last weekend (?).
The album Grohl was working on with many of the Sound City vets and using the Neve he bought from SS, is out at this time. I think there was also some credit given it at this year's Grammy Awards...?



AFA the CLASP system....it's been around awhile now, and it hasn't really spiked tape sales/use.
Thing is, it actually minimized tape use, because you get to use one reel over and over. You're not really recording TO tape, it's more like you're recording THROUGH tape.
There have been a few threads in these forum where CLASP was discussed and where examples were given how anyone can set up a CLASP-like rig in their home studio, you just won't have the search-DAW-to-tape capability that CLAPS provides, getting the basic results of that system is pretty straightforward.
I played around with it a couple of times, using my 1/4" deck...and it's doable, but I still prefer to track TO tape, and then just dump to the DAW rather than the CLASP-like method.
With CLASP....you have nothing saved/archived on the tape....it's just a temporary medium for the audio and then it's transfered to the DAW in real-time. It lets you simply work in the DAW, with the tape deck just there in the back ground and not really to focal point of the tracking.
 
The Sound City movie has been on Netflix for a while. I thought it was ok and not terribly well done IMO, but it's neat to look at the cool gear and stuff.
 
Beck said:
I'm not a big fan of Clasp... not much reason for it in most cases, but hey if it increases the demand for tape that could be a good side effect.

and I still haven't found 'Sound City.' Last I heard it was in the works... more like a concept but nothing done yet. if you have a link share it with us.
Click to expand...

Interesting. I certainly couldn't afford it and would prefer to work 100% with tape anyway, but IMO it's a great invention. It's basically the legitimate use of tape as a plug-in, which is what all those emulation VSTs are trying to do. It's the real deal though. So I'm happy to see any digital people using that over a software emulation.
 
I've just seen 'Sound City' on BBC iPlayer.....what a f$%*ing film! I didn't think a film about a mixing desk could make me cry but it did. What a story about the back-room team....I've watched a few films about Dave Grohl over the past few days and all I see is a really beautiful soul....nothing but admiration for him here. I'm not really a Nirvana fan or Foo Fighter fan, but his musicianship and musicality just seems to ooze through everything he does. It's definitely got me thinking more about jamming and collaboration...something I haven't really done for years. But then again, I'd never heard any Nine Inch Nails stuff before this film and there's a guy doing it all by himself (I think) and sounding really interesting.

After watching a few more Clasp films, it struck me that they were using the RtoR as a plug-in and that you wouldn't end up necessarily with a master tape (switching speeds for instance).....and also the cost of it is too expensive for me (I use Reason so I haven't even got a Pro Tools rig).
Al
 
Beck said:
I still haven't found 'Sound City.' Last I heard it was in the works... more like a concept but nothing done yet. if you have a link share it with us.
Click to expand...
Have a bang on this.......[video]http://putlocker.bz/watch-sound-city-online-free-putlocker.html[/video] You'll have to be quick though !
 
miroslav said:
AFA the CLASP system....it's been around awhile now, and it hasn't really spiked tape sales/use.
Thing is, it actually minimized tape use, because you get to use one reel over and over. You're not really recording TO tape, it's more like you're recording THROUGH tape.
Click to expand...

Yeah maybe so. I'm familiar with Clasp... it caught my my attention in the early stages, but I just have no use for it. I thought maybe at best it would do a little to keep tape in production same as Rap music did to keep turntables in production long after they should have died out. I guess it depends if it becomes more popular in the future or is just a flash in the pan.
 
famous beagle said:
The Sound City movie has been on Netflix for a while. I thought it was ok and not terribly well done IMO, but it's neat to look at the cool gear and stuff.
Click to expand...

I looked on Netflix but no dice. Well I'll catch it sooner or later I'm sure.
 
altruistica said:
I've just seen 'Sound City' on BBC iPlayer.....what a f$%*ing film! I didn't think a film about a mixing desk could make me cry but it did. What a story about the back-room team....I've watched a few films about Dave Grohl over the past few days and all I see is a really beautiful soul....nothing but admiration for him here. I'm not really a Nirvana fan or Foo Fighter fan, but his musicianship and musicality just seems to ooze through everything he does. It's definitely got me thinking more about jamming and collaboration...something I haven't really done for years. But then again, I'd never heard any Nine Inch Nails stuff before this film and there's a guy doing it all by himself (I think) and sounding really interesting.

After watching a few more Clasp films, it struck me that they were using the RtoR as a plug-in and that you wouldn't end up necessarily with a master tape (switching speeds for instance).....and also the cost of it is too expensive for me (I use Reason so I haven't even got a Pro Tools rig).
Al
Click to expand...



After watching Soundcity with the wife, she gets in now....
 
When I heard that Soundcity was closing I was heart broken, I was lucky enough to record there in 88 and once again in 96, great feel , the sound in the live room was something that had to be heard.
Most people think I'm nuts for setting up my studio with adats and highly modded Soundcraft Studio spirit , but its the sound that I'm looking for.
 
I assume CLASP is nice for those searching for a tape sound but preferring the workflow of a DAW. I'm not amongst those.
However I'd love if someone made it possible to use a DAW as a remote for a tape recorder for editing and muting tracks without any AD/DA conversions being made and staying out of the box. To do spot erasing from a screen would be great.
 
ric3xrt said:
Most people think I'm nuts for setting up my studio with adats and highly modded Soundcraft Studio spirit , but its the sound that I'm looking for.
Click to expand...

Yep....I think you're nuts;)

I bought three ADATS in the nineties and ran them through a Soundtracs MRX24. The sound was very crisp and clear, but the only analogue comparison I had was a 1/4" Fostex R8 I'd used and a Tascam 38 that I now know was in serious need of a setup. To think within a year I'd sold the lot and was using a Roland VS880. Seems funny now to have a TASCAM MSR16 sitting in the studio along with two MS-16 and a Soundtracs PC Midi console. I probably wouldn't have been able to afford an MS-16 back then (how much were they new?) but I have a feeling the MSR16 was around the £4000 mark. I paid £3000 for each ADAT.........what was I thinking of?

Al
 
WarmJetGuitar said:
I assume CLASP is nice for those searching for a tape sound but preferring the workflow of a DAW. I'm not amongst those.
However I'd love if someone made it possible to use a DAW as a remote for a tape recorder for editing and muting tracks without any AD/DA conversions being made and staying out of the box. To do spot erasing from a screen would be great.
Click to expand...

DAW workflow is just different....but not better or worse. :D
I started out with the G16...well, I actually started out with tape long before that, on a 4-track...but my more "formal" studio rig was with the G16. I already had computers for MIDI sequencing, but soon after added one for digital audio.
That's when I "saw the light".....




...and came to the conclusion that a hybrid approach was the best of both worlds.

You will NEVER be able to do spot-edits on tape like you can in the DAW, and for me THAT is THE #1 purpose of a DAW.
Sure, these days they've become the complete "studio" for many folks, and that's fine....but it's the editing/comping power that most pre-DAW tape users were missing and wishing for.
There's this notion some people have that "pro" recording is all about nailing the perfect take....not so. There was from the beginning and even more-so today, a lot of editing going on in pro studios. In the early days of tape recording, they HAD to try and nail it in one take because of the lack of any editing options. Then came tape bouncing, and of course, splicing with razor blades from different takes to create comps.
The DAW makes all of that look silly and almost caveman-like...so if you track with analog gear to tape, then dump to DAW and do your edits, comps and whatever you desire, then come back out of the DAW and mix through a console with outboard analog gear......that to me is as good as it gets.
Some people will stop short of coming back out of the DAW once they dump in the tape tracks, and they mix in the DAW...and I'm not as against that as I use to be, because the DAW tools have improved and mixing ITB can work, plus you have that bonus of instant recall....but in my own case, I still like coming back out and mixing analog.

AFA your question about a using a computer as a remote....I was doing that with my G16 back in 1990, using an Atari computer running the original Cubase MIDI sequencing program. The folks at Steinberg wrote the code for a G16 driver for Cubase that allowed you to lock the two together, AND you could actually arm and initiate recording from Cubase and set punch in/out points, and the G16 would perform them flawlessly.
I use to just hit REC/PLAY/FF/RW on my computer keyboard...and the G16 would follow. :)

I still have a couple of Atari computers and the Cubase program and peripherals, but I took it out of service several years back, since now I do all my DAW/MIDI work with Samplitude out of a PC, and that too was/is locked to the G16 via SMPTE/MIDI (though it can't arm tracks or command punch in/out on the G16, though most DAWs provide machine control, it's just a matter of having the right drivers. With something like the G16, it's been out of production for so long, none of the current DAWs would bother with it.
These days I'm only using my Otari MX-80 to track to, and I've semi-retired the G16, but it's still all hooked up and I could track to it if needed. I may sell it off at some point, since I hate to see it not getting used....but not just yet.
 
...and came to the conclusion that a hybrid approach was the best of both worlds.

You will NEVER be able to do spot-edits on tape like you can in the DAW, and for me THAT is THE #1 purpose of a DAW.



I track to the ADATs and lightpipe out to a HD24 for raw track back up, the HD lightpipes out to the computer, the computer lightpipes out to the ADATs, I can fix major flubs and do edit work on the computer, mostly Cut and Paste stuff, where someone is not pleased with how they played this part, or if someone wants to change how they played that part. when all is how its wanted to be, I track the edited parts out to the ADATs but all the mixdown is down thru the board. and mastered on to a different computer or tracked on to master CD......
 
ric3xrt said:
I track to the ADATs and lightpipe out to a HD24 for raw track back up, the HD lightpipes out to the computer, the computer lightpipes out to the ADATs, I can fix major flubs and do edit work on the computer, mostly Cut and Paste stuff, where someone is not pleased with how they played this part, or if someone wants to change how they played that part. when all is how its wanted to be, I track the edited parts out to the ADATs but all the mixdown is down thru the board. and mastered on to a different computer or tracked on to master CD......
Click to expand...

Can you tell a difference in sound when A/B ing the ADATS and the HD24?

I could imagine a difference in sound between the different convertors of the ADAT and the HD24 (both A-D and then D-A) and can see how you're using the different pieces of gear as tracking, backup and editing. But couldn't you achieve the same 'sound' by tracking through the ADATS (ie. use the ADATS as convertors) straight to the HD24 and playing back in the same way?
Al
 
Can you tell a difference in sound when A/B ing the ADATS and the HD24?.......

Yes, the HD24 is crisper when recording large drums sets, its like the difference between antelope orion32 and digidesign 888 . I think high end acoustic guitars sound warmer thru the XT20s, and for me, the sound of a Marshall Plexi thru an XT20 is as close to the sound of 70s rock that I can get to.... most of what I do is rock bands with a few Punkabilly style bands.

But couldn't you achieve the same 'sound' by tracking through the ADATS (ie. use the ADATS as convertors) straight to the HD24 and playing back in the same way?...........

Yes...but doing this this way, allows me to playback and mix down with the XTs while I'm downloading the HD24 caddy to the back up computer(not a big deal, but convenient)....it allows me to edit a track in the editing/computer and lightpipe the edited track right to the XTs. bypassing the HD24
Example.... record tracks 1-19 on the XTs the HD24 and the edit/computer. take the HD24 Caddy out, download the original tracks to a separate storage computer.
Guitar player says Track 12 needs some cut and paste, and delay added here but not there. track 12 get modded , I playback tracks 1-11 ,13-19 on the XT20s while rerecording track 12 from the editing computer on to the XT20, I can replace the original track 12 or bounce the modded track to channel 20-24 .now if new track is the track that will make the mixdown, I can download the modded track(from edit/computer) onto a thumb drive and upload it to the storage computer......
the edit/computer only edits , the storage computer only stores raw tracks......mixdown computer only stores mixdowns. ...tapes get reformatted and the end of the project. this way there is NO tape storage.
Now if the project is revisited, I can download all raw tracks to the edit/computer and then rerecord them on to the XT20s if needbe.
sounds confusing sometimes, but it makes sense when you see it in its working form.....
 
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