Live recording, Stereo Image

[sloom]

Having perused the mic sections for a little inside priming, I have a question... It's largely an economics question, and has two parts. First, the scene:

I'm going to record a live show in some room, somewhere, and running mics into a small mixer with phantom power (Studiomaster Logic-Twelve). Then signal goes, in 4 discrete tracks, to a Tascam 788 and is recorded.

Mics available:

LDC...
AT871-R (2, not a match!)
AT4033a
Studio Projects B-3 (mulit-patt)
ADK A-51

Dynamic...
Shure SM57
SM57 Tape-Op mod
Shure 580SB
Shure SM58
Sennheiser 435
EV 661

I have $200 to spend on this idea.
The question is basically about which way to go for getting a nice stereo image of a group, acoustic or electric, in a room. I'm thinking:

1) an omni or cardioid pair, or
2) Mid-Side.

Which is *generally* seen as a more generally good way to do a stereo recording? I know it's a *general* question, with all that implies...

I've had the CAD M179 recommended, as well as the little "Naiant" omnis, which seem to be charging off of ebay as fast as they can get listed! Any advice will be appreciated, thanks!

 

[dgatwood]

Which is *generally* seen as a more generally good way to do a stereo recording? I know it's a *general* question, with all that implies...

Mid-side gives the best mono compatibility, so if you are doing something where the details are subtle like a symphony concert, go with mid-side. For a rock show, it probably doesn't matter whether you do mid-side or X/Y.

I've never liked the sound of omni or cardioid spaced pair setups for stereo miking. I've never tried omnis with a jecklin disc, so I don't have an opinion about that.

Personally, I'd either buy another B3 and use them as a mid-side pair or maybe consider a decent stereo X/Y mic like a used AT825:

http://www.tvprogear.com/Catalog/ProductInfo.aspx?id=805&skuid=414

I don't know what you would hope to accomplish with a CAD M179. It wouldn't have a sound that matches your other mics very well, so you'd need two of them---way over your budget.

 

[sloom]

Thanks for the insight- I might be doing a lot of acoustic outfits, so this kind of detail might be worth pursuing. And I'm just learning about what I'm trying to accomplish, so I appreciate the advice on the mics. Another B-3 just might be the way to go- I guess a good stereo recording with matching mics is a good idea. Also I could do X/Y or spaced-pair with the same mics. This would get me started...

I'll upgrade another day, when I get a little further along my learning curve- and can afford it! Thanks again!

 

[Han]

XY has never given me any stereo image, more something between mono and stereo. Maybe a pair of hyper cardioids will do better as XY.

MS is nice if you want a very wide 'stage' which is mono compatible, but a very realistic stereo image? I think not.

I've had very good results with ORTF placements of cardiods like KM184, C451/CK1 and even SP B1, so I would suggest either the B3's as an MS pair, one in cardioid and the other in fig 8, or ORTF with both in cardioid.

 

[sloom]

XY has never given me any stereo image, more something between mono and stereo. Maybe a pair of hyper cardioids will do better as XY.

MS is nice if you want a very wide 'stage' which is mono compatible, but a very realistic stereo image? I think not.

I've had very good results with ORTF placements of cardiods like KM184, C451/CK1 and even SP B1, so I would suggest either the B3's as an MS pair, one in cardioid and the other in fig 8, or ORTF with both in cardioid.

Quick review: ORTF meaning mics placed close to each other, but not angled 90 degrees to each other; more like 120... Sort of a 'closer' X/Y... right?

Interesting. So which of all these methods, in your opinion, is more like how one actually hears music from a stage in a live venue? I'm not so much interested in a "true stereo image", but in the reality of live music going down in front of an audience (you).

Real and True might be different- and I like the idea, for some reason, of "Mono Compatibility". I'm listening!...

 

[Han]

Quick review: ORTF meaning mics placed close to each other, but not angled 90 degrees to each other; more like 120... Sort of a 'closer' X/Y... right?

Interesting. So which of all these methods, in your opinion, is more like how one actually hears music from a stage in a live venue? I'm not so much interested in a "true stereo image", but in the reality of live music going down in front of an audience (you).

Real and True might be different- and I like the idea, for some reason, of "Mono Compatibility". I'm listening!...

Try this: take a decent pair of SDC's and place them outside your house, in the garden or something in ORTF which is the capsules 17cm apart and a 110 degree angle. Lead the wires inside and put them in a decent console and pan hard left/right. Put on a decent headphone and sit down, close your eyes and listen, listen very carefully. It seems that you are sitting in your garden, that's called stereo.

 

[tmix]

Sloom,
You don't have to have a matched pair for Mid-Side.
I do it all the time with a B-3 and Cad E-100 or an Oktava MC012.

The AT4033 is a favorite for Bluegrass recording , but is typically on stage, not sure how it would work as a room mic, but I would think the 4033 as the main and the B-3 as the side would work, then use your other mics to spot mic things, get a decent mix going to 1-2 tracks and your m-s to 2 tracks(assuming you can copy-paste-invert in the Tascam after the fact to build your MS tracks)

 

[sloom]

Try this: take a decent pair of SDC's and place them outside your house, in the garden or something in ORTF which is the capsules 17cm apart and a 110 degree angle. Lead the wires inside and put them in a decent console and pan hard left/right. Put on a decent headphone and sit down, close your eyes and listen, listen very carefully. It seems that you are sitting in your garden, that's called stereo.

Okay then, I get the ORTF well enough- though stereo in headphones is heard differently than from speakers outside of- and away from- your head, right? Same principle though... but I look for the dilineation because I want to hear in the recording what I heard in the club the night before. Let me know if I become tedious!

And I'm understanding you'd use SDCs over LDCs? Does the smaller diaphragm make for less coloring, or 'distortion'? I also am understanding this is somewhat less of an issue than the orientation of whatever you are using... EDIT: Going back to do some reading, don't spend time answering this one unless you have something you think you should offer!

I'm soaking up as much as I can here- I'm going to need to $pend on something by way of a "like, or matched-pair" I guess, so I'm in "Heavy-Trolling-Mode"! Thanks for your time!

 

[sloom]

Sloom,
You don't have to have a matched pair for Mid-Side.
I do it all the time with a B-3 and Cad E-100 or an Oktava MC012.

The AT4033 is a favorite for Bluegrass recording , but is typically on stage, not sure how it would work as a room mic, but I would think the 4033 as the main and the B-3 as the side would work, then use your other mics to spot mic things, get a decent mix going to 1-2 tracks and your m-s to 2 tracks(assuming you can copy-paste-invert in the Tascam after the fact to build your MS tracks)

I was wondering about that- and if I can't invert in the 788 I can do it in a software app, so that's cool! I have to try this next time, just to see it work if nothing else.

Thanks tmix!

 

[Han]

There's this big mic thread on top of this page, stickey, read all what Harvey has said and soak it.

Everything you wanna know is just here, or at harmony central, gearsluts, psw or whatever forum. Read the posts of Bruce Swedien, the best engineer ever.

But don't forget Harvey Gerst, he knows very much about mics and you don't have to pay anything, it's for free, how nice!

 

[sloom]

I'm hitting it- and will lay off posting my unlearned head here for a while- thank you! Free is my arena, yes indeed.

Thanks, Mr. Gore!!