Live Recording - Equipment Question

[WSheehey]

I have a Yamaha MG32/14FX mixer and just acquired a MOTU 24IO interface. I record on Sonar Producer 8 running on a dedicated DAW (Intel i7 920, 12GB DDR3 RAM).

I need our engineer to be able to work the board during live shows, but also want to be able to control the levels being fed into the DAW.

The only way to control input levels into into the interface is by adjusting the gain on the mixer. This doesn't work for us.

I think I need a line mixer (to use the direct outs on the live mixer through the line mixer and into the interface), but I've never used one and wanted to ask first. I read about the Alesis Studio 32 (but there are a lot of quality complaints). Will a straight, rackmounted line mixer work? All I need is to have a seperate way to control the input levels going into the interface without having to worry about adjusting the amplifiers or live board.

I need to be able to record about 15 channels. If I'm on the right track with the line mixer, is there any issue with using multiple 8 channel mixers?

Whether I have the right idea or not, I'd love opinions on both configuration and specific gear.

Thanks.

 

[TexRoadkill]

Why do you need separate control of the interface inputs? Usually you just record the independent channels through the Direct Outs on the board and mix it all later. As long as you don't overdrive the interface inputs there shouldn't be any problems. Adding another layer of cheap mixer noise and coloration doesn't sound like a good idea either.

 

[RawDepth]

Correct me if I am wrong, but the Yamaha MG32 does not have direct outs.

There is no way to get separate channel outputs that are not effected by the gain. Even if you used the channel inserts, (assuming your sound guy didn't need to use any for the house mix,) they still are post gain.

That mixer is not designed for separate channel recording. You could record the house mix but I promise you won't like it.

 

[John Spence]

Are you saying the Yamaha does'nt have any direct outs or just no direct outs pre-gain?
Most times I've made live recordings the concert desk has had direct outs which are always post gain but swithchable pre/post eq and inserts. Some of them have an independent output level control for the direct out. Once your live engineer has set his input levels then all you have to do is ensure the correct level to your soundcard input as TexRoadkill says.
An alternative would be to use mic splitters on stage and you'd have to run these into a soundcard with as many mic pres as you need to record. This way you'd be getting the signal direct from the mic and not from the gain stage of the live desk.

 

[mixsit]

Are you saying the Yamaha does'nt have any direct outs or just no direct outs pre-gain?

They're always far as I've seen post gain'. These happen to have no direct outs but also the inserts here are post eq which makes it even more problematic for sharing a live/tracking split.

 

[NYMorningstar]

I need our engineer to be able to work the board during live shows, but also want to be able to control the levels being fed into the DAW.

Why not ask your engineer? My guess is you really don't have one and you're trying to do this yourself which is ok but it sounds like you really need one. Buying more equipment to throw at your sound problems isn't the way to go.

If you don't have one you are going to experience problems with the house engineer when you play bigger venues. If you do have one you are going to experience problems with the house engineer unless he knows what the hells going on.

My opinion on your configuration, 'Add an Engineer'

 

[RawDepth]

...The only way to control input levels into into the interface is by adjusting the gain on the mixer. This doesn't work for us...

Actually if each channel gain is set correctly, the "line level" signal should be adequate for both the recording and for the mixer channels. Use your PFL meters to set these at proper levels. Once set, the gains should not be changed during the show anyway.

If you don't need to use any insert jacks you can record from them. Since that board has effects buses (aux 5 and 6) built in, you can use those for the house effects instead of inserting outboard gear.

You simply run insert cables from each channel insert point to the 24I/O. Remember that the signal must be returned to the insert jack of each channel in order for the house mix to keep working. (Because getting output from this jack breaks/detours the normal flow of the channel signal.) That is not a problem since the 24I/O has analog outs. Unfortunately this means making or buying at least 15 insert cables. But you can always try it with one channel first to see if it works.


Another Note: Since the insert points are post-EQ on that mixer, then all EQ changes on the mixer channels will also be affecting the recording. Simply adding a lot of low end EQ can appear to increase gain.

Good luck with it.

 

[Jeff_D]

They're always far as I've seen post gain'. These happen to have no direct outs but also the inserts here are post eq which makes it even more problematic for sharing a live/tracking split.

rofl, a direct out that was before the preamp wouldnt be much use. As far as gain goes, I'd think your objective would be to get the mic gain set for each channel in the begining- i.e. its boosting the mic signal, but not clipping. The live mix would then be adjusted with the faders. The recorded mix you'll do later in the studio. You *could* conceivably take the signal from each channel insert and put that into the Motu. But, of course then you can't use your insert for anything else. Plus, if the inserts are post EQ like mentioned above, then that kinda sucks for recording purposes.

The reality is that Yami isnt the best piece of gear for this task. The problem is, the right piece of gear probably isn't gonna come cheap. This might be a nioce choice. http://pro-audio.musiciansfriend.com/product/Soundcraft-LX7ii-32Channel-Mixer?sku=630929 Definitely a big step up from the yami. It has direct outs on the first 24 channels. If you want to keep the yami, you'd need to be able to "split" the mic cable before you plug it into the yami mixer, then get a whole second set of preamps to feed into the Motu. By the time you accomplish that, the new mixer is probably the cheaper (and better sounding) way to go IMO...

btw, I'm jealous. I'm lusting over the 24IO. If they made a slightly cheaper "16IO" I'd get one for sure.

 

[mixsit]

They're always far as I've seen post gain'.

...rofl, a direct out that was before the preamp wouldnt be much use. ..

..was trying to find a tactfull way to ask that.

 

[Jim Lad]

I think you really need to start looking at standalone, multi channel recorders which will also serve as your mixer.
Your question is common enough. i.e. How can I do this with the equipment I've got? and the answer is usually quite complicated as you can see from the replies.
Tascam & Korg have some excellent units and have kept up to date with the technology but you could also take a serious look at some Roland & Yamaha units which were top of the line 5 years ago but have fallen out of favour just for the lack of a USB out.
Basically, what you would be doing is using a stand alone both as your live mixer while and as your recorder.
You can then remix within that unit or transfer the .wav files to your DAW and edit in there. (much easier way to go)
Your Presonus would make an excellent soundcard when it comes to editing your mix and your mixer would still be very useful for monitoring.

 

[Jeff_D]

Totally disagree about a stand alone recorder being a better option... That Motu interface is very nice and its not the recording medium thats even presenting the problem here. the problem is, where do you pull the signal from. A mixer with the facilities to output to a recorder is all you need to use that Motu. I'm sure you can find something cheaper than the soundcraft I posted above. I'd try the insert thing first, since you already have this stuff. Sure its limiting, but it wont cost you anything to see if it will fly.

 

[Jim Lad]

Then we'll agree to disagree.
I just think that saving all of your tracks (Free of effects) to edit later is a far better/simpler option.
Doesn't using the mixer just leave you with the house mix?

 

[Jeff_D]

Then we'll agree to disagree.

Yup- Its seems like you prefer your standalone recorders. I'm a computer guy and I'd never go a different way for recording.

I just think that saving all of your tracks (Free of effects) to edit later is a far better/simpler option.
Doesn't using the mixer just leave you with the house mix?

We DEFINITELY agree on this ... Which is why he needs a mixer with direct outs on each channel. That MOTU will record 24 separate tracks at a time. A mixer with direct outs will pull a signal from each preamp (usually before the eq, and definitely from before the fader). So you set the gain on the mic pre to get a strong signal that doesn't clip and from there, you're split... the direct out goes to the MOTU. The eq and faders affect the house mix. Best of both worlds. One mixer. One interface. Besides that Motu is freakin nice. Make it work.

 

[Jim Lad]

On the bright side, no-one recommended EMU.

 

[xxl]

Yup- Its seems like you prefer your standalone recorders. I'm a computer guy and I'd never go a different way for recording.


We DEFINITELY agree on this ... Which is why he needs a mixer with direct outs on each channel. That MOTU will record 24 separate tracks at a time. A mixer with direct outs will pull a signal from each preamp (usually before the eq, and definitely from before the fader). So you set the gain on the mic pre to get a strong signal that doesn't clip and from there, you're split... the direct out goes to the MOTU. The eq and faders affect the house mix. Best of both worlds. One mixer. One interface. Besides that Motu is freakin nice. Make it work.

ahhh... the computer myth/excuse.

 

[Jeff_D]

ahhh... the computer myth/excuse.

ha

 

[Jim Lad]

Am I mything thummit?