Live drums through PA

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RecordingMaster

RecordingMaster

A Sarcastic Statement
I am going to be playing in bars very soon with a new classic rock band. I will be mic'ing up my kick, snare, and each of the three toms individually. I will be plugging them into our 6 channel PA amp head. The vocals will also be plugged into this head.

The amp has a 20ish-band master EQ. Each individual channel has only a two band eq (hi & lo). What I have done is adjusted the eq so that it sounds the fullest and feeds back the least with the vocals. I adjusted it by vocal testing through my sure mic.

My question is as follows...
When we play live, and I plug my drum mics into the amp head, how do I adjust the eq's for each individual drum if there is a frequency that is causing problems through the speakers or plain just sounds bad? I know that the general rule of thumb is to start with no eq, but I had to eq the amp a certain way so it doesn't feed back with the vocal frequencies.
What I would think to do, is adjust accordingly during sound check, any unwanted frequencies any drums might be producing (as much as possible with the two-band and then in detail on the master eq). But then the vocals will sound different.

Am I approaching this correctly?

Sorry about the length.
 
Playing in small clubs with a 6 channel head isn't the sort of situation where I would be micing toms, or probably much of the drums at all. How big are these clubs? Also, you can't set a graphic EQ very well until you get in each club, because the room response and feedback will be different in each place.
 
You might try just using a kick mic.
If it is a small club there is no need to mic the whole kit.
 
Like the 2 above posts, I wouldn't put the drums through the PA unless I was playing outside or at a very large hall. Keep it simple. If anything, mic the kick.
 
I second, third, forth, etc. all of the above. Stick a mic on the pillows in the kick if you have a ported skin, otherwise just hang a mic in front of the kick. The rest won't need any micing at all; in fact, if you are a meaty drummer, as often as not you might actually have to hold back on your acoustic intensity to keep from burying everybody else who is amplified and/or to satisfy the tight-assed bar manager who tells the band to turn it down during the first set.

G.
 
I agree with the above, in small clubs there is rarely any need to mic drums. If you feel that you must, then first EQ your vocal mics, their sound quality is more important than the drums. This may be difficult with a small PA, 6 chanels is not enough to propperly mic drums in a live application, let alone carry the vocals and other instruments, I assume if you plan to mic drums then everything is going through the PA, if not it will sound like crap.
As an alternative idea, you might use a regular guitar amp to mic the snare and kick, if you are trying to add reverb or other efx for a certain sound, I've done this and it works quite well, especially in small clubs where additional volume is not nessassary. Just set the amp next to the drums, everyone thinks it's another guitar amp and wonders....how does that drummer get that sound?
 
Hey, now that's an idea, Dani. Probably work with something like a JBL EOn, or Peavey Keyboard amp that has the multiple inputs, too.
 
the other thing to consider is everytime the kick and snare hits, its going to put quite a load on your amp, so with vocals going at the same time you may be heading towards clipping amp which may blow your speakers and your amp. Not to mention no compression, and limited eqing.

I gotta ask the question, will anything really sound clearly with that set up ?? i am imagining lots of distortion and people running for their lives out the door all the while the bar manager not paying you and your band rep ruined :) :p :D

i gotta say, your set up sounds really weird. A amp head with only 6 channels for your whole band?? You need some different/better equipment for playing out live. those little 6 channel heads are really just barely enough power for vocals/acoustic guitars in a small room, and im talking like a rehersal size room and i cant imagine the amp actually making the drums louder than they would be just on their own, with the exception of a little kick depending on the drummer foot and the actual design of the drum shells.

hope it works out for you though. maybe im missing something.
 
Thanks for the input!

I agree with you all to keep it simple. I guess I just got sick of hearing other drummers not mic'ed and their toms sound like cardboard. A lot of my drumming can get pretty detailed so I just wanted people to hear everything in detail, such as rolls, ghost notes, hi-hat stuff. I don't mic drums to be LOUDER, I just like to mic them enough to hear them as CLEARLY as they hear the guitars and vocals.
My view is kind of like...If everything else is amplified (whether it's a loud instrument or not) then why should the only instrument not mic'ed be the drums?
I do agree with the clipping remark and that it might start sounding like crap if everything is going through a 6 channel....I was too scared to bring my precious 12 channel mixer out to the bars, but I guess I'll consider it now if I do mic the drums (it always depends on the size of the club).
Thanks again
 
RecordingMaster said:
My view is kind of like...If everything else is amplified (whether it's a loud instrument or not) then why should the only instrument not mic'ed be the drums?
Click to expand...

Because the reason why everything else is amplified, is to compete with the drums. :D
 
ermghoti said:
Because the reason why everything else is amplified, is to compete with the drums. :D
Click to expand...
That's exactly right. The reason drums are not amplified - except for the kick - in venues from small bars to medium-sized clubs is because they don't need it. Half the time the drummer actually has to hold back to keep from being too loud.

The reason the kick is miked is because of the nature of acoustics and human hearing; low frequencies require more energy to be heard at the same volume as higher frequencies, so the kick benefits from the amplification. It in fact needs it, especially when having to compete against the bass.

I can understand your desire for definition, but between all the other stuff coming off the PA and the bleed from guitar amps and stage monitors, miking your kit is going to add just as much mud as it does definition. The key to getting the best definition out of your drums in a live setting - other than your actual playing style, of course - is to set the mix balance and volume of the rest of the stuff going through to PA to match properly with the loudness of the drums. You want them to be lot enough to be able to compete with the drums, but not so loud as to cover the drums up (and the later is hard to do ;) )

G.
 
u don't want feedback so don't use to many mics like for guitar you could di it
 
Please turn me up some more!

Thanks. :D

I was just waiting for the punchline as I was reading the responses. It came!
 
Dani Pace said:
I agree with the above, in small clubs there is rarely any need to mic drums. If you feel that you must, then first EQ your vocal mics, their sound quality is more important than the drums. This may be difficult with a small PA, 6 chanels is not enough to propperly mic drums in a live application, let alone carry the vocals and other instruments, I assume if you plan to mic drums then everything is going through the PA, if not it will sound like crap.
As an alternative idea, you might use a regular guitar amp to mic the snare and kick, if you are trying to add reverb or other efx for a certain sound, I've done this and it works quite well, especially in small clubs where additional volume is not nessassary. Just set the amp next to the drums, everyone thinks it's another guitar amp and wonders....how does that drummer get that sound?
Click to expand...

You knw what? That's not a bad idea at all. I do just happen to have a Randall cabinet with two 12" Celestion Speakers, as well as a tiny Alesis MicroVerb II unit. That's another reason I forgot to mention why I want to mic 'em up is because I like a little verb on the snare and toms but not the kick or cymbals, even though I'm playing live and there will be natural reverb.

I am definitely going to take you up on your guitar amp idea, to seperate the drums from the vocal amplification. Does anyone think my Randall with two 12's will blow if I try the kick mic through there though? I would think you'd need a proper PA speaker to handle those low frequencies to delivery that thump in the chest sound.
 
I've played some bass through a guitar amp, and it really doesn't work well enough for anything but practice or noodling around. I could only guess it would be worse with a kick. Might be a solution to a little snare 'verb though. Max the reverb, cut out the lows and mids, and turn it up until the sound is wet enough for you.
 
I'd be really scared of running a kick mic into a nice guitar amp..... I don't know if it would mess it up or not, but I wouldn't risk ruining a nice amp.

With that in mind, I'd crank it up loud with something like a rogue halfstack. Because nothing you could do to that amp could possibly make it sound any worse.
 
By the time you turn it up loud enough to be heard, you will blow right through those poor little 12" speakers.

A big ol' sound company I used to work for had these monitor wedges with 2x12" JBL's and a 2" driver. Freakin' GREAT monitors until you had to dump kick drum in it! Some singer would INSIST on having kick in their wedges, and every time, that would mean blown drivers! :(
 
I've never played at a rock club/bar without a PA. Said clubs always Mic or DI everything.
Said clubs are on the smaller side.

I don't get it, but it works for me. Of course, I would prefer the sound person to have control over the balance any day.

EDIT: We've had soundboards done in the past. We get like no drums or lead guitar in the mix. Just goes to show a lack of real importance with an extremely loud drummer and amps turned up too loud.
 
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Ford Van said:
By the time you turn it up loud enough to be heard, you will blow right through those poor little 12" speakers.

A big ol' sound company I used to work for had these monitor wedges with 2x12" JBL's and a 2" driver. Freakin' GREAT monitors until you had to dump kick drum in it! Some singer would INSIST on having kick in their wedges, and every time, that would mean blown drivers! :(
Click to expand...

It all really depends on the frequencies you try to feed them. Maybe you can get away with kick in a guitar amp or 12" wedges with a low cut at 100Hz. I always low cut monitors, because I am a miserable bastard that hates the talent :D No, actually I do sound for a piano-n-vocals group that sometimes uses a backing band. They never complain about the low end, but the drummer hits (but not too hard!), and the bassist has a very nice rig that stands on its own just fine. I mic it just for recording, but I don't usually feed it through the PA, and never the monitors.

One thing to be aware about bass through guitar amps is that some amps are designed to shed lows, especially in a lead channel. That may be why it sounds poor; the same speaker hooked up to a bass head might sound OK.
 
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