Levels swishing in and out during mastering??

[SouthSIDE Glen]

so you guys are sayin get a premaster as good as possible first then you know send it out somewhere or something?

What most of us are saying, in one form or another, is that the term and idea of "mastering" is getting way out of hand these days.

Somehow, somehwere along the line "mastering" has moved from "prepping a 2-mix or series of 2-mixes for printing and duplication" to "trying to make a bad-sounding 2-mix sound good." I think the advent of digital software and the potential to open a business market for selling stuff from finalizers to harmonic balancers is largely to blame for this shift - along with the belief that just because one can posess a boatload of high technology software or hardware that they no longer need to learn any actual technique or quality practices.

Unfortunately, that's not really how the world works, at least not if one is looking for the kind of results they really have in their head. This may be "home recording", but everybody - especially those who use fancy "mastering-izers" - really want their stuff to compete with the commercial stuff. "Mastering-izers" will not do that for anyone unless and until one gets everything right *before* they get to that point.

The best advice that I like to give is that when mixing, to pretend that there is no such thing as "mastering". Pretend that what comes out of your mixdown as as good as you can do, as far as the process will go. In such a world, one is forced to get their mix as good as they can on the mixdown. With the possible exception of overall volume of the mixdown, this is exactly how it should go in our real world.

This will sound like a paradox, but I'm confident that virtually every quality mastering engineer will tell you this: the better quality the mixdown, the more one can get out of mastering. Mastering should involve fine-grit sanding, polishing and detailing of the mixdown only; it should not involve reapir or attempting re-mixing of the mixdown via over-mastering.

Put another way, if your mix needs Har-Bal, then what your mix *really* needs is to be re-mixed, not to be fixed in mastering.

G.

 

[masteringhouse]

happy birthday masteringhouse!

Thanks !!!

 

[Ford Van]

The point is, if the sound is "swishing", etc....It's not ready to master yet. And if he doesn't realise that, then he's not ready to master something. Making him realise that helps in a HUGE way. This is how my statment helps exactly.

I think we have established that the "swishing" sound is from some bad compressor settings WHILE he is trying to master.

I still don't see how telling a guy to give it up "helps".

 

[Ford Van]

The point is, if the sound is "swishing", etc....It's not ready to master yet. And if he doesn't realise that, then he's not ready to master something. Making him realise that helps in a HUGE way. This is how my statment helps exactly.

I remember when I didn't know jack about "mastering". Had no idea where to start. The idea of coming HERE and asking questions wasn't even an idea then because this place didn't exist yet. I just had to plug away at it.

Thankfully, I didn't have you around telling me to "leave it to somebody else", otherwise, I would have never learned how to do it at all.

No, I am not a world class mastering guy. But I can tell you that my work has been preferred against others who charge a LOT more, and have major label mastering credits! I have made many people happy with the job I have done for then, ESPECIALLY at the price I did it for.

MIXING, and TRACKING are arts that are VERY hard to get down and do well (well, I don't think you ever "get it down"...). I don't see guys here, when asked about mixing or tracking something telling every person "You really shouldn't do it yourself at all. Let a pro who knows what they are doing do that for you". If that was applied, there would be NO reason for this site at all!

If you don't know what to contribute to a mastering thread concerning how to actually DO mastering, don't contribute to it. But on a bulletin board dedicated to do-it-yourself guys, it is hilarious to tell somebody that they should hire a "pro" to do it just because they don't know how.

You don't think that idea is ludicrous?

 

[masteringhouse]

I'm always wary of mastering tutorials from manufacturers of mastering software and gear like the one mentioned in this thread. But for those that don't have it already, there's a feature article on DIY mastering in the February issue of Electronic Musician has good general information.

 

[RAMI]

I still don't see how telling a guy to give it up "helps".

Wow....you're still on this???? Rough day???

I don't see how telling someone to give up helps them either.

The problem is that you're trying to put words in my mouth. I didn't tell him to give up. I'm telling him that the song he's trying to "Master" isn't ready for this process called "mastering". And if he can't see that, then HE is not ready to "master". Seems to me almost everyone in this thread has said the same thing....

I re-read my post 5 times, I still can't see where I said "Give up".

I'd be flattered at your attention if it was coming from someoone else.

 

[RAMI]

I remember when I didn't know jack about "mastering". Had no idea where to start. The idea of coming HERE and asking questions wasn't even an idea then because this place didn't exist yet. I just had to plug away at it.

Thankfully, I didn't have you around telling me to "leave it to somebody else", otherwise, I would have never learned how to do it at all.

No, I am not a world class mastering guy. But I can tell you that my work has been preferred against others who charge a LOT more, and have major label mastering credits! I have made many people happy with the job I have done for then, ESPECIALLY at the price I did it for.

MIXING, and TRACKING are arts that are VERY hard to get down and do well (well, I don't think you ever "get it down"...). I don't see guys here, when asked about mixing or tracking something telling every person "You really shouldn't do it yourself at all. Let a pro who knows what they are doing do that for you". If that was applied, there would be NO reason for this site at all!

If you don't know what to contribute to a mastering thread concerning how to actually DO mastering, don't contribute to it. But on a bulletin board dedicated to do-it-yourself guys, it is hilarious to tell somebody that they should hire a "pro" to do it just because they don't know how.

You don't think that idea is ludicrous?

It's only ludicrous because you've decided to act like a freaking drama queen about it.

You have a knack of trying to put words in people's mouths, I guess.
I looked at my post again, and can't see anywhere where I said "Hire a pro". I do it myself, too. I don't hire a pro.

The point is, him and the song are not ready for mastering.
Period.

I guess you're just trying to make this another one of your endless, useless, childish arguments that you manage to get into on a daily basis.

Get over it and stop whining already.

 

[Ford Van]

It's only ludicrous because you've decided to act like a freaking drama queen about it.

You have a knack of trying to put words in people's mouths, I guess.
I looked at my post again, and can't see anywhere where I said "Hire a pro". I do it myself, too. I don't hire a pro.

The point is, him and the song are not ready for mastering.
Period.

I guess you're just trying to make this another one of your endless, useless, childish arguments that you manage to get into on a daily basis.

Get over it and stop whining already.

How do you know that his songs are not ready for mastering?

 

[Ford Van]

Sounds like you should be leaving what you call "mastering" to someone else.

Nuf said concerning "give up".

 

[Ford Van]

I just love how you have tried to turn this into me being a "drama queen", and that I am stirring up shit "like usual" type of thing.

The FACT is, you told the dude to give it up. You have suggested that he, and his songs are not ready for mastering, yet, you have not heard one fucking note of it RAMI. Fuck off. It is obvious you have little knowledge to share, or, possibly like some around here who do but don't because they are only here to tell everyone that mastering is too hard for them so as that they can pimp their service?

I will indeed drama queen it, and stir up shit when the drama is a dumbazz calling himself an "engineer" comes into a legitimate thread, with a legitimate request for help starts in with the ol' "you should have somebody else do it", and calls that "help" on a bulletin board who's primary purpose is to SHARE HOW TO DO STUFF.

I guess since you have probably never successfully mastered anything in your life, you must have nothing to share. That is cool. Just shut your fucking pie hole in that case instead of telling the guy that he should have somebody else do it for him..

 

[Harvey Gerst]

pod4477,

Just curious:

Were some of the tracks duplicated, and then offset a bit during mixing?

 

[masteringhouse]

pod4477,

Just curious:

Were some of the tracks duplicated, and then offset a bit during mixing?

Harvey brings up a good point (as usual) "swish" is a bit ambiguous. It could be a phasing issue too.

 

[Ford Van]

after doing all it says i got a good sounding master but during parts of it it will sound like a swishing or sweeping of either mids and lows or volume or soemthing. i cant figure it out. maybe im just tired and hearing things but does anyone know why this might happen??

It is obvious if you read closely that he is talking about pumping/breathing of the compressor.

Probably nothing wrong with the audio, just being over-compressed/limited and it is pumping. Pretty standard mistake for somebody starting out.

Options are, to increase the release time by a LOT or reduce the amount of gain reduction being applied.

 

[Harvey Gerst]

It is obvious if you read closely that he is talking about pumping/breathing of the compressor.

Probably nothing wrong with the audio, just being over-compressed/limited and it is pumping. Pretty standard mistake for somebody starting out.

Options are, to increase the release time by a LOT or reduce the amount of gain reduction being applied.

Yup, but if there were some low level phasing problems to start with, the compression might bring that up more, to where it becomes more obvious. That's why I asked whether he had duplicated some tracks and offset them. A lot of new people do that with guitars and vocals, rather than double track them.

 

[Ford Van]

I will stick with he was hearing pumping/breathing of the compressor, as that would be the problem about 99.9% of the time with a guy that has never used a compressor over an entire mix, or hasn't done much manipulation of a 2 track mix before. Over-compression is almost always the first mistake a person makes when trying to "master".

 

[masteringhouse]

Without actually hearing the audio it's a best guess for all of us, though he did mention the L2 seemed to be an issue.

That's the major point of this thread, you can't master by sight, textual description, with a predetermined chain, single type of workflow, or magic box/plug-in. You have to listen and create the cure if there is indeed a disease to begin with. Your ears/experience/taste are your most important tools in audio. It's very difficult teaching critical listening skills on a forum.

 

[RAMI]

I just love how you have tried to turn this into me being a "drama queen", and that I am stirring up shit "like usual" type of thing.

The FACT is, you told the dude to give it up. You have suggested that he, and his songs are not ready for mastering, yet, you have not heard one fucking note of it RAMI. Fuck off. It is obvious you have little knowledge to share, or, possibly like some around here who do but don't because they are only here to tell everyone that mastering is too hard for them so as that they can pimp their service?

I will indeed drama queen it, and stir up shit when the drama is a dumbazz calling himself an "engineer" comes into a legitimate thread, with a legitimate request for help starts in with the ol' "you should have somebody else do it", and calls that "help" on a bulletin board who's primary purpose is to SHARE HOW TO DO STUFF.

I guess since you have probably never successfully mastered anything in your life, you must have nothing to share. That is cool. Just shut your fucking pie hole in that case instead of telling the guy that he should have somebody else do it for him..

Hehe...what an angry, pathetic little whiney baby. I didn't even bother reading more than 2 sentences of yours before I start laughing and lose interest. So, you're sort of wasting your energy on alot of wasted anger. But you obviously have alot to spare.

Once again, I did NOT tell him to give up. And you don't need to hear something before deciding it's ready for mastering if you're told "It's all swishy". You're putting words in my mouth while you're foaming at yours as usual. You need help, man.

You're obviously on the wrong side of one of your cycles. Talk to you next week.

 

[Ford Van]

It's very difficult teaching critical listening skills on a forum.

No, I don't think it is that hard if you actually give it some effort. Audio examples help, especially when they are before/after types.

Surely Tom, you can hear a difference between these two files correct?

http://www.phoenixlightandsound.com/Audio/Pitch/GEMix.wav

http://www.phoenixlightandsound.com/Audio/Pitch/GEMixDualShift.wav

I bet 8 out of 10 people here can't articulate the difference they hear.

I used those two audio files in a thread I started a couple of years ago concerning a neat vocal effect you can use to give a more intimate vocal a bit of "movement" without resorting to something a bit more obvious like Chorus.

Here were the three "vocals only" files:

http://www.phoenixlightandsound.com/Audio/Pitch/GEVox.wav

http://www.phoenixlightandsound.com/Audio/Pitch/GEVoxDualShift.wav

http://www.phoenixlightandsound.com/Audio/Pitch/GEVoxDualShiftObvious.wav

I described what FREE plugin's I used to accomplish this effect, what settings I used, as well as how the effect might change with different settings, and posted various different audio clips to give the person a chance to hear the same audio with and without the effect.

Not difficult to do at all, just took a bit of time Tom, and a tutorial like that is totally in the spirit of what this website is all about. I didn't try to tell the person that they should go to a "pro studio" that has an Eventide so they can use the obviously superior Dual Shift preset that I copped this effect from. I didn't tell them that they should send ME their vocal tracks for me to apply it for them. Nope, I simply told them how to achieve an effect that is WIDELY USED IN PROFESSIONAL PRODUCTIONS that most of them didn't even know was being used in professional productions!

You can imagine, it was quite a hit with those that took the time to read the thread and listen to the audio clips.

Indeed, there are various other ways that this effect could have been achieved, and some guys have different tools available to do so. But, in the end, we would all be applying a time delayed/pitch shifted part to the original track!

So, wouldn't it be great if our esteemed "real" mastering guys here actually posted some short audio clips of before/after compression, and share the compressor settings they used, and WHY they used them, and maybe even posting another clip where maybe it is just slightly more compressed then they liked? You know, you guys would actually share SOMETHING about how to do actual "sweetening" of a track.

Sure, you can use the excuse of "how would that be relevant to the stuff the person was working on". But you know, me sharing a pitch shift effect isn't relevant to every audio production, and the settings I used were only appropriate to that song. I have the reader SOME credit that they will experiment and find what will work best for them, but what was most important is that SOMETHING ABOUT HOW TO DO THIS get's shared.

People that don't share how they do stuff, I question why they are even here.

 

[Ford Van]

Hehe...what an angry, pathetic little whiney baby. I didn't even bother reading more than 2 sentences of yours before I start laughing and lose interest. So, you're sort of wasting your energy on alot of wasted anger. But you obviously have alot to spare.

Once again, I did NOT tell him to give up. And you don't need to hear something before deciding it's ready for mastering if you're told "It's all swishy". You're putting words in my mouth while you're foaming at yours as usual. You need help, man.

You're obviously on the wrong side of one of your cycles. Talk to you next week.

Pretty obvious that you now realize I am right.

 

[masteringhouse]

So, wouldn't it be great if our esteemed "real" mastering guys here actually posted some short audio clips of before/after compression, and share the compressor settings they used, and WHY they used them, and maybe even posting another clip where maybe it is just slightly more compressed then they liked? You know, you guys would actually share SOMETHING about how to do actual "sweetening" of a track.

FV -

I don't know if you were around then or not, but about a year ago we had a "mastering workshop" thread that is very much in the vein of what you're talking about. I think(?) it was pretty beneficial. Unfortunately I don't have free time to do this on a regular basis, but that shouldn't prevent others here from carrying on the tradition. It may be time to give it another go though.

I have no problem giving help where and when I can.