Layering rock guitars 101

H

Hazard Nova

Everything in moderation
I've searched all over but have not yet found a comprehensive, simple guide to layering guitar tracks for a heavy rock sound (think Soundgarden or Helmet)...or any sound, for that matter. Yes, "if it sounds good it is good," but I interpret that as "learn the rules first, then break them". So what are some rules?

(Some background on me, real quick: most of my electric guitar playing is just noodling around totally unplugged, so I haven't had much time to experiment with sound. I can point to parts of my favorite songs and say "I want this part of my song to sound like that" but I have next to no clue how to get from my multi-FX pedal to there.)

Of course there will always be exceptions, but as general rules of thumb, I want to know things such as:

  • How many overlaid guitar tracks are too many?
  • If I've overlaid too many guitar tracks and the mix is starting to get muddy, which ones should I try eliminating first?
  • What are some basic guidelines for stereo placement when it comes to layering guitars?
  • What kinds of guitar sounds combine in what ways? (References to parts of actual songs would be helpful.)
  • Are there any combinations of sounds to avoid?
  • Is guitar feedback (and other kinds of noise) way more commonly used in layering than most people realize? If so, when?
  • In interviews, I've heard guitarists I like talk about using certain guitars for layering. What do they mean? What makes a guitar good for layering? How do I emulate that with a single guitar?
  • Any other suggestions/dos and don'ts/things to keep in mind or watch out for are welcome!
Thanks.
 
Hazard Nova said:
....most of my electric guitar playing is just noodling around totally unplugged, so I haven't had much time to experiment with sound.
Click to expand...


Maybe the best thing would be for you to first actually plug in and find the time to experiment....you will answer some of your own questions.

That's what most people who already know how to get their sound have done in order to learn how to get their sound.
Your not going to get some 1-2-3 step "formula" given to you by anyone, that will work the very first time you finally plug in.
 
miroslav said:
Maybe the best thing would be for you to first actually plug in and find the time to experiment....
Click to expand...

I want the set of guidelines so I can start experimenting in the right direction. This will save me a lot of time.

Like I said:
Yes, "if it sounds good it is good," but I interpret that as "learn the rules first, then break them". So what are some rules?
Click to expand...
 
Hazard Nova said:
I want the set of guidelines so I can start experimenting in the right direction. This will save me a lot of time.
Click to expand...

That's just it though. Dive in first. No holds barred. Lay down a track, then grab a different pickup and lay down another. Tweak the EQ for the different tracks .
The only thing I could offer is to back off your gain from what you normally use. A notch or two would probably do it.
Like I have my gain at around 7 1/2 when playing live. I back it off to 6 when recording. Max gain doesn't really record very well.

Damn the torpedoes!
:D
 
Dogbreath said:
Tweak the EQ for the different tracks .
The only thing I could offer is to back off your gain from what you normally use. A notch or two would probably do it.
Like I have my gain at around 7 1/2 when playing live. I back it off to 6 when recording. Max gain doesn't really record very well.
Click to expand...

That's what I'm looking for! That's already very helpful, thanks.
 
Hazard Nova said:
I want the set of guidelines so I can start experimenting in the right direction. This will save me a lot of time.
Click to expand...

Yeah, I know what you said....but again, until you actually first *plug in* and do some of your own experementation....the things other people do may not apply or make sense to you, and you end up just following some "check list".
The process of discovery leads to greater understanding.

I know it sounds vauge when someone says "when it sounds good"....but there's a lot of validity in that because your amps, speakers, guitars, room, mics...and ears....are different than mine or someone elses. :)

Anyway....you want a "check list"....OK.

Adjust your amp(s) a little differently per track, since you have only one guitar.
If you have different mics, swap them per take....and/or adjust their position.
Of course, when you mix, tweak the EQ as needed for the song and sound you are after.
Watch the low end so it's not getting too muddy.
You may not need 100 tracks....sometimes more is less, but it depends.....
 
Thanks.

So far, my strategy when I try something new is to copy something I like as closely as possible, then adjust to my tastes. In doing so, I also learn what I'm doing. Then, the next time I can try a radically different approach with more confidence.
 
Before we get into all these questions, answer some for us. What gear are you using?

Guitar?
Amp?
Speaker?
Mics?
Preamp?
What kind of room will you be in?
Are you able to turn your amp(s) loud? Like real loud?

If you're using a small/cheap solid state combo, chances are you will never sound like those massive thundering guitar tracks you want to emulate.

Bands like Soundgarden and Helmet are professional bands using professional grade equipment in professional studios tracked, mixed, and mastered by professional audio guys. Not saying you can't do it, but be realistic with your goals. If you know nothing, and judging by your questions, you don't, and that's fine, then you need to experiment and figure out what's gonna work for you. Get off your butt and start laying some tracks.
 
Thanks Greg, I'll try and answer in order...

Not sure which guitar I'll be using yet. I'll try to borrow a friend's (can't remember the brand, it's a semi-obscure one but very high quality) otherwise I'll use the Ibanez I bought for $200 when I was 15. I'll put new strings on it, of course. :)

From there I'm going into a Zoom G1XN multi-FX pedal, then straight into a Yamaha MR1642 preamp mixer, then using an XLR-to-USB cable into my fairly new Macbook Pro, which is running Adobe Audition.

I'm not using an amp because 90% of my guitar recording will be done late at night in the basement while my infant daughter is asleep.

I know my recording isn't going to sound as good as the professionals (I actually answered that way on a poll elsewhere in the forums recently), but I also know that I can get some reasonably good sounds with a bit of care and by gleaning wisdom from others in similar setups who have gotten a lot of bang for their buck, and by emulating the strategies used by the pros as best I can within my setup. Thus this post.

BTW, I have a background in a cousin field to audio engineering (film post-production) so I know some basics about stereo placement, mic selection, compression, EQ, acoustic treatment, etc. And I studied music for a few years. This is going to be my first foray into really recording my songs, though. I kept my initial post "dumbed down" to make sure I didn't get any overly technical answers, or answers with built-in assumptions.

[EDITED TO ADD:] I should mention, my goal for this recording isn't to sell on iTunes or anything (hah). It's just to have something that I can show my friends that they'll be impressed with. I'm thinking if it goes really well I might even make a music video too and put it on Youtube, and then just bask in the glory of how cool the whole accomplishment makes me feel.
 
Hazard Nova said:
I'm not using an amp because 90% of my guitar recording will be done late at night in the basement while my infant daughter is asleep.
Click to expand...

Reamping sometimes gets shunned on the 'just do it right the first time' basis, but if your time is restricted like that you might consider recording DI only and using a software VST for an idea of what you're doing.
Once you have a good amount of work done quietly you could wait for a suitable time of day to reamp the heap and get rid of the VST.

Given that you're starting out, it was also give you the opportunity to reamp, listen, adjust, reamp, listen, adjust without having to nail the take every time. Pressure's off!

Just a thought. :)
 
If you will take the time to research on YouTube, you will find video after video of people explaining this topic. But keep in mind that they are explaining how they do it. This is not a one-size-fits-all kind of thing. You can find some starting points and loose guide lines, but that's all they are. You still have to do the work! Good luck!
 
Hazard Nova said:
Thanks Greg, I'll try and answer in order...

Not sure which guitar I'll be using yet. I'll try to borrow a friend's (can't remember the brand, it's a semi-obscure one but very high quality) otherwise I'll use the Ibanez I bought for $200 when I was 15. I'll put new strings on it, of course. :)

From there I'm going into a Zoom G1XN multi-FX pedal, then straight into a Yamaha MR1642 preamp mixer, then using an XLR-to-USB cable into my fairly new Macbook Pro, which is running Adobe Audition.

I'm not using an amp because 90% of my guitar recording will be done late at night in the basement while my infant daughter is asleep.

I know my recording isn't going to sound as good as the professionals (I actually answered that way on a poll elsewhere in the forums recently), but I also know that I can get some reasonably good sounds with a bit of care and by gleaning wisdom from others in similar setups who have gotten a lot of bang for their buck, and by emulating the strategies used by the pros as best I can within my setup. Thus this post.

BTW, I have a background in a cousin field to audio engineering (film post-production) so I know some basics about stereo placement, mic selection, compression, EQ, acoustic treatment, etc. And I studied music for a few years. This is going to be my first foray into really recording my songs, though. I kept my initial post "dumbed down" to make sure I didn't get any overly technical answers, or answers with built-in assumptions.

[EDITED TO ADD:] I should mention, my goal for this recording isn't to sell on iTunes or anything (hah). It's just to have something that I can show my friends that they'll be impressed with. I'm thinking if it goes really well I might even make a music video too and put it on Youtube, and then just bask in the glory of how cool the whole accomplishment makes me feel.
Click to expand...

Ok gotcha. Well, in that case, I'd suggest you forget "layering" since modelers and sims can give you a pretty finished sound anyway. You won't be dealing with mics and stuff, so all the rules of miking cabs and stacking real guitar tracks don't really apply. Just dial up a sound in whatever gizmo you're using and run it straight in.

A better option would be true direct in, and using a software amp sim. This way you can preserve your raw guitar signal and reamp into a real amp at a later time if you ever get around to it. At that point real guitar tracking techniques will come into play.
 
Greg_L said:
A better option would be true direct in, and using a software amp sim. This way you can preserve your raw guitar signal and reamp into a real amp at a later time if you ever get around to it. At that point real guitar tracking techniques will come into play.
Click to expand...

Someone else (in meatspace) recommended I try that, too. In that case should I still use the Zoom pedal on a clean setting (maybe just a teeny bit of gain) and/or mixer, but only as a clean preamp to up the signal quality a bit?

That's what I was going to do with the vocals, anyway.
 
Hazard Nova said:
Someone else (in meatspace) recommended I try that, too. In that case should I still use the Zoom pedal on a clean setting (maybe just a teeny bit of gain) and/or mixer, but only as a clean preamp to up the signal quality a bit?

That's what I was going to do with the vocals, anyway.
Click to expand...

No. Just go straight in. Don't put anything in the signal path. You can't undo it once it's done. A sim is gonna wanna see pure raw unaffected guitar signal, and you're gonna want that same raw unaffected guitar signal if you ever reamp.
 
I like that idea. My only worry is not finding a sound I like among the VSTs, I'd probably just use what Adobe includes in Audition. Do you happen to have an opinion on Adobe's included guitar amp VSTs?
 
Here is a short list of generalities:

1. The biggest, most spacious sounding rythm bed is done with two performances panned wide.
2. If you need more than two, fuzzy, overdistorted soundsdo not stack very well because they take up too much sonic 'space' on thier own. The more guitars you try to put on top of each other, the more crunchy (not fuzzy) they need to be in order to avoid it turninginto a mess
3. If there are two ifferent rythm parts, see if one if them can act as the main rythm bed. play that one twice and pan wide and put the other one in the middle. That one can play the whole song or just pop in when that part is different than the main rhythm.
4. Generally, the more you layer, the softer and less focused it becomes. (impact-wise, not volume-wise)
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top