Kick inaudible over bass in quite parts

BeniRose

BeniRose

New member
I'm having some issues mixing my kick and bass together. I've cut some frequencies inversely to allow these two to sit together, but I'm still having some problems hearing the kick through the bass when the drummer is playing quietly. Unfortunately, the kick was quite boomy (FiberSkyn heads) so there's only so much I can do with EQ. I appreciate the drummer playing with dynamics, as a good drummer should, but it's causing the kick to get lost during the lower dynamics, so I'm wondering if there's a way to boost the quieter kicks to be as loud as the louder parts. I'm having problems getting the right compressor/limiter settings to do this, raising the quiet ones is causing clipping on the track. Can someone help me out, or does anyone have other suggestions to keep the dynamics while helping the kick cut through the mix?

Also, I tried searching for threads on the topic of mixing kick and bass together and didn't find much, does anyone have any good links?
 
The first thing that comes to my mind is that you should consider adding a compressor to your bass and send the kickdrum into its sidechain input instead. By adjusting the threshold and ratio and with super fast attack and release, the bass volume will be lowered at the initial transient of each hit on the kickdrum. All talk aside, in real life, this means that your kickdrum will cut better through the mix without you touching any eq or compression.

If he's playing very dynamically, and the above doesn't quite cut it, I think it's a much better and much more musical solution to ride the volume fader, rather than compress the hell out of it.
In the end, if he's simply playing substantially more dynamically than the overall arrangement of the song, you should either re-record the performance if that's an option or mix in a sound-replaced kickdrum to tame the dynamics.

One thing in terms of EQ - one thing I tend to do is find a very narrow band of frequencies, the bass is very heavy on - and cut this band some 4-6dB on the kickdrum with a very narrow Q. Then I'll do the same thing for the kickdrum - find a narrow band of frequencies the kick is heavy on, and cut it from the bass with a very narrow q. This also helps glueing.

If you put all those things to use, I think you can really make room for both in your mix, without adding click or other nasty stuff to your kick drum sound.
 
Wessberg said:
The first thing that comes to my mind is that you should consider adding a compressor to your bass and send the kickdrum into its sidechain input instead. By adjusting the threshold and ratio and with super fast attack and release, the bass volume will be lowered at the initial transient of each hit on the kickdrum. All talk aside, in real life, this means that your kickdrum will cut better through the mix without you touching any eq or compression.
Click to expand...

Great Idea. I use sidechain compression in my electronic music frequently, but don't really think to use it too much in rock mixing. Thanks.

Wessberg said:
If he's playing very dynamically, and the above doesn't quite cut it, I think it's a much better and much more musical solution to ride the volume fader, rather than compress the hell out of it.
In the end, if he's simply playing substantially more dynamically than the overall arrangement of the song, you should either re-record the performance if that's an option or mix in a sound-replaced kickdrum to tame the dynamics.
Click to expand...

Even though I have an Alphatrack which makes it super easy to do just this, I always forget to use it as a tool. Especially considering this is how REAL mixing was done for the past 60 years until the DAW came around. Silly computers always make us forget how things are supposed to work!

Wessberg said:
One thing in terms of EQ - one thing I tend to do is find a very narrow band of frequencies, the bass is very heavy on - and cut this band some 4-6dB on the kickdrum with a very narrow Q. Then I'll do the same thing for the kickdrum - find a narrow band of frequencies the kick is heavy on, and cut it from the bass with a very narrow q. This also helps glueing.
Click to expand...

Yeah, I already did this. A slight problem is that because the kick is so boomy, I'm boosting around 60 and cutting 120 on the kick and doing opposite on the bass (I've normally heard it done the reverse). This is causing a slight loss of low end in the mix, but hopefully I can get it back in mastering or something.

Wessberg said:
If you put all those things to use, I think you can really make room for both in your mix, without adding click or other nasty stuff to your kick drum sound.
Click to expand...

Thanks so much for your advice. I'll let you know how it turns out!
 
BeniRose said:
I'm having some issues mixing my kick and bass together. I've cut some frequencies inversely to allow these two to sit together, but I'm still having some problems hearing the kick through the bass when the drummer is playing quietly. Unfortunately, the kick was quite boomy (FiberSkyn heads) so there's only so much I can do with EQ. I appreciate the drummer playing with dynamics, as a good drummer should, but it's causing the kick to get lost during the lower dynamics, so I'm wondering if there's a way to boost the quieter kicks to be as loud as the louder parts. I'm having problems getting the right compressor/limiter settings to do this, raising the quiet ones is causing clipping on the track. Can someone help me out, or does anyone have other suggestions to keep the dynamics while helping the kick cut through the mix?



Also, I tried searching for threads on the topic of mixing kick and bass together and didn't find much, does anyone have any good links?
Click to expand...

Just my tid bit of info. All of the DBX manuels that I own always has a part in the manuel how to set different settings for different instruments and for what you are trying to accomplish. They are very practical and maybe elementory to you but to me very very helpful to go back and read what does what(threshold,ratio,attack,release,hard knee/soft knee etc etc) on a compressor....just a tid bit of info. Compressors are made to help these kind of problems that you are experiencing:eatpopcorn:
 
Boosting 60 and cutting 120 on the kick?

That is almost opposite of what I typically do for most heavy rock songs.

Please post a sample man. There is just no way to guess what you are having issue with.
 
Actually, not bad advice on those videos. Though, each song has it's own issues.

Post a sample Beni!

:)
 
In this situation I do one of two things after I turn up the kick on the quieter parts:
1. add somewhere around 800 hz to the bass and turn it down a bit. The midrange adds clarity and definition, which is sometimes what is lacking when the bass is fighting with the kick.
2. Add high end to the kick to make it cut through. In your situation, you would probably be looking somewhere around 1k to get some attack. If you get the attack to cut through, the low end takes care of itself.
 
guitarplayr82 said:
These videos might help you:



Click to expand...


I love Graham's videos, but his style is pretty commercial and these recordings aren't so much. That said, I did watch the second one last night, and just watched the first one. It's a good idea, but even watching the analyser on my kick channel, I can see there's nothing above 1k to boost for the click like Graham did! Like I said, super boomy bass with that FiberSkyn head! Thanks for the suggestions though!
 
OK. I have a sample!!

Honestly, this mix is a pretty quick one, and I'm going to be remixing the whole thing once tracking is done (the drums are the only thing not scratch, everything else is using amp sim and will be re-recorded) so it's probably a pretty bad example of this, but I have run into this issue several times before, and will probably run into it again once I go back and legitimately mix the song.

That being said, here's the sample:


In case you don't click through and read the description...The first part is the kick as it is in the mix (as I said, this is a pretty quick mix, using lost of preset and amp sims with some tweaking). You can hear the kick gets lost in the bass guitar through the verse (particularly that slide down in the middle of it) until the chorus comes in and the drummer starts putting more velocity behind the kick. You can also hear more high-frequency and beater head on the kick during this later part (and I could see this in my analyser). The second part is the kick soloed with no effects, and the third is the kick soloed with effects (compression->noise-gate(-10db reduction)->EQ->limiter). Both the soloed kick parts are normalized, so they are about 10 times louder than they actually get in the mix!

Hope that helps friends, thanks again so much for all your suggestions, and I will be keeping them in mind when I go in for the final mix! I did already try sidechain compression and that helped quite a bit, so I'll try some of the other techniques down the road to see what I can get.
 
I agree that the kick is boomy. You could probably put a gate on it so that it snaps in and out more abruptly.

But I don't really think that is your main problem. I think that the guitar is very dense, and it is the guitar that is filling the space and robbing the bass and kick of definition. Try mixing kit and bass together first, without guitars. Add the vocal, then bring up the guitars.
 
Thanks. I just tried taking the guitars out and the kick was still sitting pretty far behind the bass, but I'm sure if I actually did some mixing from that point it would help a lot.

I'm also using a Beta 52 for my kick, which I love because it sounds so natural, but I think I've had this issue with it in the past where it sounds pretty flat and muffled and am wondering if swapping it for a D112 or D6 will help alleviate this problem in the future. Obviously I'd still have to work through it here.
 
https://homerecording.com/bbs/equip...regs-general-guide-rock-drums-newbies-273077/
There's some excellent info for you in there.
Greg is an excellent drummer &, sadly for me, an excellent bassist too. His recordings have both sounding great.
My personal tweak - bass guitar...-5db at 100 with a very narrow Q. +5db at 200 with the same Q. +5 db at 3k with the same Q.
You do need to leave some space where the 2 don't overlap & that'd probably be best where you can hear you kick beater click. Carve some of that genreal area out of the bass.
Also with the kick check what's happening below 50 as that can/will have knock on effects up the freqs.
 
Yeah, ouch. The kick has a huge amount of low end around 40hz. My subwoofer is farting and my brain is now mush. lol.

You may find that triggering a kick from the track will help. Hit me up if you would like me to send you some. :)
 
Judging by that track, I think you should put a pillow or planket in your kick drum, maybe tighten the lugs up a bit, and put the mic closer to the beater head to get more attack.
 
Gate the kick, add 1k to get some thwack. (3k will sound too rock) If you compress, use a medium release and set the attack to let the transient through and clamp down on the decay. That should do the trick. With the entire band playing, I can clearly hear the low end of the kick poking out, there just isn't any definition. Your problem isn't in the low end, it's in the midrange.
 
Farview said:
Gate the kick, add 1k to get some thwack. (3k will sound too rock) If you compress, use a medium release and set the attack to let the transient through and clamp down on the decay. That should do the trick. With the entire band playing, I can clearly hear the low end of the kick poking out, there just isn't any definition. Your problem isn't in the low end, it's in the midrange.
Click to expand...

Well yes, my problem is that I'm not sure there's much midrange to work with! That, and because the low end is what I have to work with, I'm afraid this will be taking away form the bass. Anyways, I'm still going to give all this stuff a shot over the new week, I haven't had a chance to sit back down with the track yet. Although, like I said, I've had experience with this in the past so I'm looking for a general solution more than just fixing this mix (which was a quick mix using mostly tweaked pre-sets). But I do really really appreciate the responses, you guys are truly the best!
 
The good news is that my guitarist (this is for my band) HATES the way drums sit up front in modern recording, and much prefers the older style where they are more in the back of the mix, so even if I'm not able to fix it in this mix, that might be alright! =D
 
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