KENNEDY AVALON mit DRUMZ

[rayc]

Hello Folks,
The link below takes you to Kennedy Avalon with drums provided by Greg L, guitar solo by Ido1957, distorted guitars and synths by Faderbug, vocals by co writer Terry then rhythm guitars & basses by me.
The mix is preliminary and I'm looking for suggestions about the whole package: there up to 7 guitars, two sep. bass tracks, 3 stereo synth tracks, a half doz tracks for the drums, vocals & b vox tracks as well as tambourine.
The original inspiration was Joy Division but it moved a fair way from that as it evolved (this was the 1st chord progression I committed to 4 track cassette back in '86). It's long gestation being due to my inability to find a bass line to suit it - played with PiL/Jah Wobble lines, discoKiss lines - you name it.
http://www.soundclick.com/util/getplayer.m3u?id=6730964&q=hi
As stated - I'm looking for suggestions on any sort of tweak you think might assist.
Here are the lyrics if they help:
JFK – Rework 1 (03/JAN/20008)

Jack Locked Jackie in Camelot
Chaste, and always on view
While ploughing a furrow of privilege
For only the moneyed and few

What can you do for your country?
Applaud, and take the bait
Smile, style, from substance resile
Balloons always deflate

A man for his times fights red with red
Throw the dogs in the circle and bet
A bay in the tropics felt the first chill
Of a cold time that is with us yet

The pigs didn’t fly when they stood eye to eye
On the shoreline, pointing the lance
In its shadow today, Guantanamo Bay
Is the child of irrational stance

Fame is dirty, it sullies the night
Some croon stitched into a dress
Tongue-kissing power, ends up dead on a bed
In another “need to know” mess

Daddy’s little soldier – shorts, jacket, saluting
As the caisson goes rolling along
Backwards boots pointing, after the shooting
While stars through their tears sing their songs

Everyone tells you they knew where they were
An ill wind they all thought was change
For the strings of a puppet can be cut at the whim
Of the true masters of the grange.


Copyright 2008 – Berman Cochrane – Pygmy Beat

 

[ido1957]

You've got a pretty good mix going here Ray. You've tamed that chorus section really well, and the instruments have a nice clarity and balance. Maybe pull the vocal track into a de-esser and raise the volume a tad in spots. The bass has a great rich tone to it, I noticed that right off. The panning of the rhythms is good too, gives it some spread. Greg's drums and Faderbug's guitars/synths contribute greatly to the piece - well done guys. Solo is okay I guess ....

 

[Waffleness]

How did you record the guitars?

Vocals need to be louder and a bit less fuzzy

Toms sound ok. Bass is ok. Im a bit confused as to what your aiming for. Maybe try and bring the lead melody to the front a bit more. Needs a bit of work, but can be fixed.

Whats the synth-y sound at the end from? Its got a bit of vibrato/LFO going on.

 

[Greg_L]

Drums need to be louder.

I aint just saying that cuz I played the drums. They're getting buried - especially during the choruses. That accent guitar during the chorus is really loud. That might be the only real problem. The verses sound pretty good. There's that high pitched squeal in the vocal track again. I don't know what's causing it.

Fun song to do though, and definitely a change from my usual drumming. Thanks for bringing me in to play.

 

[CIRO]

Hi, Rayc:

Nice collab...

Drums (excellent sound),bass, synth and stereo guitars sounds pretty good and very well balanced (frequency)
Vocal could be more "inside" the mix.A bit of speculation (without listening the track) but I think it need something in the hi mids and volume + effect (room/verb).
Same mids and "effects" could be nice on the guitar solo.
Guitar in the "B" part sounds harsh in the 2k range ("masking/hidding" the voice -who knows with a more present vox...)

Ciro

 

[RAMI]

I always liked this song, even before the Gerg thumped on it. Sounds good. I can see why he'd say the drums are a little buried, and I'd agree for the most part. But, I also got used to hearing this with a pretty low drum track before, so it didn't stand to me until he mentioned it.

I think my main beef is with the vocals. I find this on alot of your tunes. Since the vocals are often sort of singing/talking in many of your songs, I often have trouble making out the vocals clearly. I can't put my finger on it. It's almost as though the vocals were done at 3am without wanting to wake anyone up. So, they sound as if the vocalist got really close to the mic and sang really low. Maybe that proximity effect gives it too much low-mids and makes it sit on top of the mix without being clear enough.

I love the feel, lyrics and sound of this tune, though. I even really dig the video alot.

 

[joeym]

I've always liked it too, Ray, It's got really nice interesting chord changes. Unfortunately in this version the guitars are overall a bit too dominant and kind of bury everything else, especially the vocals. Not that the gits are recorded wrong or anything, I think they're recorded really well. I believe it's just a matter of mixing everything right. Still a great song though...

Cheers
Joe

PS: I think the lyrics are fantastic!

 

[Greg_L]

I think my main beef is with the vocals. I find this on alot of your tunes. Since the vocals are often sort of singing/talking in many of your songs, I often have trouble making out the vocals clearly. I can't put my finger on it. It's almost as though the vocals were done at 3am without wanting to wake anyone up. So, they sound as if the vocalist got really close to the mic and sang really low. Maybe that proximity effect gives it too much low-mids and makes it sit on top of the mix without being clear enough.

.

This is a good description. I agree pretty much wholeheartedly. It's not terrible or anything by any means, but I'd like to hear whoever sings your stuff belt that shit out like he means it.

 

[ido1957]

Maybe that proximity effect gives it too much low-mids and makes it sit on top of the mix without being clear enough.

I'd like to hear whoever sings your stuff belt that shit out like he means it.

Part of the appeal of Ray and Terry's music is the vocals....

Greg has a good point, but changes to vocal style are more a performance/songwriting item. That's something Terry can look into for a future tune. Hopefully he won't go all AC/DC on me (haha).

For now, I think we should try and work on what's there.

Rami made a good observation too, could be low-mids thing. I can hear some volume differences but there's also some sibilance happening.

The vocals are real close to the right level/tone in the latter part of the song. That can be a sort of initial reference point.

If anyone reading this knows of a good, free or cheap de-esser plug-in, I hope they chime in. I'll look in Sonar 6 and see if I can find anything.

What about the level - should we suggest the track be compressed before or after de-essing?

What about for future - how can Terry reduce ess-ing and keep a (fairly) constant level to mix with?

I think the rest of the mix sounds pretty good, with tweaks already recommended above that are mostly about levels.

Lots of excellent collab on the playing maybe we can extend that to the mixing...

 

[ido1957]

Ok - nothing in Sonar 6 PE, or Cakewalk 9.0....
The only free de-esser I found is Spitfish...

 

[rayc]

A quick response - Terry's going to have a go at rerecording the vox. The ones on the track are cleaned up but there's still a very narrow peak at around 11khz that I can't treat effectively. See the attached snap for a view - it's MUCH better now than it was - there were a couple of peaks & they were HUGE!
There's a prob with Terry's signal chain - he's addressing that before redoingthe vox.
De essers - I have a few but then a gain too few to mention...
Sorry , the Spitfish is really cool BUT it won't work with the cakewalk VST wrapper - I used to be able to use it with afree 3rde party one but no longer - it crashes my system - Blockfish & Floorfish work beautifully.
I'll have a go at all suggestions - I posted this early so that I could garner a bundle of ideas to work from THANKS all.
I'll respond in detail later tonight.

 

[rayc]

Waffleness,
Ta for the listen. Which guitars? Some are DI, some are mic'd & some are modelled! The vox aren't too clear as they've had to be heavily processed to remove quite a bit of noise - some of which still reminas - as a result the top end is M.I.A.
The lo fi wnd is a synth with a wobble warble.
Bring the lead melody from the solo or the bits and pieces of guitar lines & synth/keyboard running through the track.
Direct me - what can be done to fix it up?

 

[rayc]

Greg_L,
Yep, I know - I need some ideas of how to progress with this mix. I'll work on the chorus = I've already cut back a lot of stuff that was going on in there.
Which guitar is the prob in the chorus is it the three rhythm gits playing essentially the same thing, the two distorted gits playing the swelling lines or the fuzz bass over the top?
I'l tweak away this weekend.
Your drum track is REALLY cool.

 

[rayc]

CIRO,
thanx for the ears. I'll attempt your suggestions mate. I generally leave elements offered in a collab free of my interference as the players often know best but you've made some good suggestions that are worth a try. Cheers.

 

[rayc]

RAMI,
Interesting! Terry has a brand new grandchild in the house so the 3am eternal thing may have some legs. The vox have been brutalized to get rid of some probs. The highs aren't there and using an exciter to synthesise them simply brings back the fundamental problems.
I'll restore the drums to their pristine propulsive best.
Thanks for the close listen & excellent suggestions.

 

[rayc]

joeym,
Thanx for the kind words mate. The lyrics started out as an exercise in the the songwriting forum - some fun stuff was being done in there, - Terry took them and added some more bite.
I understand about the dominant gits. Any particular one though?
Glad you like it.

 

[Waffleness]

Waffleness,
Ta for the listen. Which guitars? Some are DI, some are mic'd & some are modelled! The vox aren't too clear as they've had to be heavily processed to remove quite a bit of noise - some of which still reminas - as a result the top end is M.I.A.
The lo fi wnd is a synth with a wobble warble.
Bring the lead melody from the solo or the bits and pieces of guitar lines & synth/keyboard running through the track.
Direct me - what can be done to fix it up?

The guitars I wondered about was the little riffy bits, not the washy ones.

Erm I feel there is a lot going on in the mix. If it were my song I would first sort the vocals out, as you mentioned you are doing so thats ok. I would bring the cymbols & snare up, the guitars down. They kind of take over a bit. Again I dont know how you plan to use the parts, but the kinda washy guitar sounds I would turn down. The lead sounds I was talking about was the riffy guitar bits.

 

[rayc]

ido1957,
Thanks for being chief apologist, causist & sophist mate.
You are right Terry's vox have there own place in the scheme of things. I don't think I actually heard him get loud let alone belt a tune (except when inebriated & then it's usually a Tom waites song).
Terry has aquired an USB device to run from his mixer into his comp. I think the prob & noise have been centred on the soundcard in his comp - he will now bypass that & hopefully, the issue will be solved. He'll have some highs in his vocals and some distance with his pop screen to avoid the sss bends!
Last contact I had with him he was gearing his cranium up for a vocal retake - I'm looking forward to that.
Tanhs heaps.

 

[queepy]

Cool ...I agree with Ciro about the guitar in the "B" or chorus part ...a bit harsh and distracting on the phones here...maybe needs to be pulled back in the mix a bit...also agree the song would benfit with the drums more present in the mix to propel it and give the tune a edge...Really like this song and think the contributions from Ido,Greg, and Faderbug work well!

 

[Xeries]

I listened to this song about a month ago on your site for the second time. I've always liked it. I thought the vocals were the star, not the git.

I have to say, I liked the older version better. I'm sure it's nothing you can't fix. I would say "trim" 2dB if you are in Sonar off the gits - or just ride the faders to bring the vocals up where they belong. Another trick is to pan the gits and leave a hold in the middle for the vox. The more the gits are panned, the less volume they will have.

I'm glad you are working on this. I'm sure you'll get it eventually. The added talent on board will surely make it shine, but as with a lot of my music, things should be layered a little more deliberately. HTH, Wig