Isocab, mini-amp recording question!

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mhat

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I want to get great recorded progressive rock/metal guitar tones. I've been reading up a lot about hard driven tube amps and I've come to thinking that the way to go about this is with a small amp of around 5 watts cranked. However, I need to keep the noise down so I am planning on building an isolation cabinet/box.

I have two ideas for this.
1. Build a sound proof box that will contain a small combo amp and mic. OR
2. Build a isocab with a single speaker similar to http://guitars.musiciansfriend.com/product/Randall-Isolation-12-Speaker-Cab?sku=480371#new


I'm looking for any insight into this, specifically the difference between a hard driven 8" speaker (as in small combo amps) vs. a 12" speaker.
 
I built one based on the Demeter version. A 10" speaker seems to work best. It's a good tool to have for guitar tone except you can't get room sounds.
 
For hard rock or metal guitar tones, the low end "chunk" is one of the most important characteristics of those tones. An 8" speaker probably isn't capable of generating sufficient low-end frequencies to satisfy your desires when it comes to heavy guitar tones.

The general consensus is that a 12" speaker is the best for reproducing low frequencies for a guitar amp. Even a single 12" speaker can do an adequate job in a recording situation since even for 4x12" cabinets, it's generally only 1 speaker that is close-mic'd anyways.

I think that several commenters will say that a 4x12" cabinet and a higher-wattage power amp is the only way to go in order to generate good heavy guitar tones. I won't argue that those setups can generate some great, bone-crushing sounds. But I don't believe that they're necessary in order to do this.

For your situation, I'd suggest the 12" speaker simply for its ability to generate more low-frequencies.

As far as an isolation box, you're going to want to be able to decouple the speaker/cabinet from the power section of your tube amp. You don't want power tubes to be stuck in a sealed box with no ventillation or cooling. That's a recipe for a fire, a blown output transformer, or at very least power tubes with substantially shortened life span. So you're going to want a head/cabinet setup and not a combo amp. You could get a combo amp and move the speaker from the amp's chassis into your iso box. But you certainly DON'T want an entire combo amp inside an iso box.

Personally, I'd recommend a power attenuator over an iso box. They work for combo amps just as easily as for stacks. They allow you to keep the room ambience, give you more options for mic positions and mic selection/combinations.

And once you factor in all of the costs of building an iso box, the price is on par with most power attenuators (Weber Micro Mass costs $70, the Mini Mass is $75, the Mass is $160, and the THD HotPlate is $300).
 
Tadpui said:
For hard rock or metal guitar tones, the low end "chunk" is one of the most important characteristics of those tones. An 8" speaker probably isn't capable of generating sufficient low-end frequencies to satisfy your desires when it comes to heavy guitar tones.
Click to expand...

I beg to differ...this classic 8" low watt amp is what you hear on the Led Zeppelin records.
19q9ur.jpg
 
I made mine out of an old blown sidefill monitor...lined the insides with fiberbrace...studiofoam... and mounted a 12 celestion classic 30...and I tend to use the Tech21 trademark 30 to drive it.
 
darrin_h2000 said:
I beg to differ...this classic 8" low watt amp is what you hear on the Led Zeppelin records.
Click to expand...

That was only for Led Zeppelin I, which was when Page was still playing Telecasters. Not a ton of low-end on the guitars on that album. And not what I would call progressive rock or metal guitar tone either.

From Led Zeppelin II forward, he was using 100-watt Marshalls, Vox, Hi-Watts, Fender Super Reverbs, Orange amps, and a couple other brands. Most of which were 4x12" configurations.
 
Tadpui said:
That was only for Led Zeppelin I, which was when Page was still playing Telecasters. Not a ton of low-end on the guitars on that album. And not what I would call progressive rock or metal guitar tone either.

From Led Zeppelin II forward, he was using 100-watt Marshalls, Vox, Hi-Watts, Fender Super Reverbs, Orange amps, and a couple other brands. Most of which were 4x12" configurations.
Click to expand...

He was still playing telecasters at the ARMS shows...Firm...Outrider Band...and the most recent reunion with Robert Plant.

But you can also say that they wernt muddy either...lol.
 
Tadpui said:
For hard rock or metal guitar tones, the low end "chunk" is one of the most important characteristics of those tones. An 8" speaker probably isn't capable of generating sufficient low-end frequencies to satisfy your desires when it comes to heavy guitar tones.

The general consensus is that a 12" speaker is the best for reproducing low frequencies for a guitar amp. Even a single 12" speaker can do an adequate job in a recording situation since even for 4x12" cabinets, it's generally only 1 speaker that is close-mic'd anyways.

I think that several commenters will say that a 4x12" cabinet and a higher-wattage power amp is the only way to go in order to generate good heavy guitar tones. I won't argue that those setups can generate some great, bone-crushing sounds. But I don't believe that they're necessary in order to do this.

For your situation, I'd suggest the 12" speaker simply for its ability to generate more low-frequencies.

As far as an isolation box, you're going to want to be able to decouple the speaker/cabinet from the power section of your tube amp. You don't want power tubes to be stuck in a sealed box with no ventillation or cooling. That's a recipe for a fire, a blown output transformer, or at very least power tubes with substantially shortened life span. So you're going to want a head/cabinet setup and not a combo amp. You could get a combo amp and move the speaker from the amp's chassis into your iso box. But you certainly DON'T want an entire combo amp inside an iso box.

Personally, I'd recommend a power attenuator over an iso box. They work for combo amps just as easily as for stacks. They allow you to keep the room ambience, give you more options for mic positions and mic selection/combinations.

And once you factor in all of the costs of building an iso box, the price is on par with most power attenuators (Weber Micro Mass costs $70, the Mini Mass is $75, the Mass is $160, and the THD HotPlate is $300).
Click to expand...

Thanks for your input! I'm getting a clearer picture of what I'm going for.

I have looked into attenuators...from what I've heard they invariable suck some tone. I've also heard that although you are able to get satisfactory tube saturation, by attenuating the volume you will not get speaker distortion.
I will be recording in a home studio apartment type setting so keeping it quiet for others (and city noise bleed out of the mics) is my top priority. And I'll just add reverb for ambiance.

I think I'll try to build a box that will fit a 1x12 cab and will house two mic stands.
 
Looking on craigslist for older PA speaker cabnets with the right dementions is a good way to go on this...instead of all that construction hassle you only have to build the lid...I think this was cheaper for me than going to home depot and buying the materials.
 
my isolation cabinet:


iso cab open with boogie
isocabopenzr6.jpg



inside pic:
isocabcloseupopen.jpg
 
I have a Grendel Sound Dead Room II Iso cabinet that looks a little like Gonzo-X's. It works really well and has a low level of leakage. I also use a Weber Mass which I like. I think both are good options. Obviously an iso cabinet will limit your miking options and will only have one speaker, but is quieter and keeps ambient noise out whereas an attenuator will let you use room mics and other miking options, multiple speakers and cabs, etc.
 
Being frugal and using what's on hand I am using an old Fender Rhodes road case for an iso booth, room for a small combo to a 1x12 cab. It was my bass trunk when I was still touring.
 
Why would you need a grill on the speaker?

I use a sm57 inside the cabinet...Never thought to use a LDC...I allways thought that the 57 would sit in the mix better.
 
I'll take some pics as I go along. I have some good ideas for this. Maybe you guys will help on my miniamp selection. I tried a Orange Tiny Terror today and I liked the tone using the 7W's cranked. It is decently high gain I found. I was hoping to find a nice crunchy clean break-up tone.

Do you guys know of some similar low watt tube amp heads to consider?
 
That is very simular to the one I made except I used a 10" speaker. I think in an enclosed situation like that a 10" speaker is a bit punchier.

That looks really great!
 
As far as mini amps go you should check out the Egnater Rebel. Its got a scalable watt controller that takes this guy down from 20 watts to 10, 5, or 1 with out changing its tone or so the Internet tells me. Another cool feature is its got a pair of 6V6's and EL84's Power Tubes and you can mix to taste with tube mix knob. :cool:
 
ocnor
the Weber Mass+Palmer cab filter.
the iso cab, has an ever present sound that sounds like the inside of a box.


darrin-
the grille, is only to protect the speaker from 'microphone drop', which does happen when you're not careful.

microphones sound as different as guitars and amps.
there are so many possibilities, i change up the mics to suit layering of tracks, mostly.
if you only use a 57 on every track, there will always be the same resonant peak frequency on most of the tracks, giving it a fingerprint of that frequency.
 
The thing that impresses me about the Grendel is that it doesn't sound boxy to me. It's really tightly constructed and seals very tightly (so tightly I don't want to use my ribbon mic in there for fear that the ribbon will be damaged by the pressure changes when I seal or open the access door. It sounds great with an Audix I5, SM7 or 421U though.

I like my using my Weber Mass with a miked cab a lot too when noise level isn't a concern. The frequency specific attenuation knobs and the treble loss compensation switches help tweak the sound-- pretty drastically if you want to.

I like the Orange Tiny Terror a lot too. It sounds good stock, better with upgraded tubes, a lot better with the Jule Amps mod, and I hear better than that with the Mercury Magnetics iron (extended headroom, bass & treble extension, maybe extra juice too (?).

I liked the Egnater Rebel, but didn't keep it-- I decided I would rather have a few amps that did one or two sounds each really well rather than a chameleon type amp that could passably fake a wider range of tones... plus it's an excuse to have more amps :)
 
GONZO-X said:
ocnor
the Weber Mass+Palmer cab filter.
the iso cab, has an ever present sound that sounds like the inside of a box.
Click to expand...

That makes sense as there is really no way to stop the reflections due to the close proximity of the cab walls. It also seems that the pressure inside the cab would have have an ill effect on the speaker excursion as well as the mic's diaphragm. I wish that I would have bought one of the Palmer speaker sims years ago. The PDI-09 was only $100 and the PDI-03 was only $350. [kicks self in ass]
 
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