Is this a reliable way to set the intonation?

Discussions about ways to set intonation on guitars is a little like discussing different ways to wash a car. Some will get it clearer than others. However if the owner lives on a dirt road, the differences are mostly lost in the dust.

I’m an engineer at heart. When approaching a problem I tend to look not for the best possible tool, but the tool most suited to the job at hand. In the end that usually works best. There’s an old engineering line about measuring with a micrometer, marking with a pencil, and cutting with an axe.

Guitar strings don’t have constant pitch. Once a string is plucked, it’s pitch varies as the vibrations die down. So setting intonation is a little bit of guesswork to beginning with, as one decides when to pick the pitch of reference.

A much larger factor is player style. I play with a light touch where others may play with a very heavy touch. Sometimes others will sit in and play my guitar. Many will comment that it played in tune for me, but was sharp for them. The difference is that the setup is done with my style in mind, not there’s. Unless a setup person takes this into account, intonation work may be quite ineffective. Tuners don’t help here, as it relies on personal knowledge and experience.

Strobe tuners are very accurate and in general more accurate than most electronic digital forms. However the differences can many times be swamped by other factors like playing style and how the owner will tune when he/she gets home.

I set intonation with the same device I tune with, a Line 6 POD XT Live. The guitar is a Line 6 Variax 500, which is a digital guitar to begin with. The interface between guitar and XT Live is a digital one. There are no ¼ instrument cables involved. For me that works well. Others may have different approaches.

Ed
 
For intonation of my electrics I use a Korg 'tuning trainer' I've had for nearly 30 years. We found them to be quicker and just as accurate as the Conn strobes in the concert biz.

For tuning on stage I've come to like the intellitouch tuner; it's quick, you can see it in the dark, clips on to just about anything, doesn't plug in, and your eyes never leave the audience if you stick it on the peghead.
 
Codmate said:
Just out of interest - how is a 'virtual strobe' tuner any more accurate than any other digital tuner?

They're both digital devices right?

The stobishness leverages the accuracy like a vernier scale does on a caliper.
 
I've been contemplating getting a Korg DTR 1000 or 2000 rack mount tuner. They're digital but they have strobe settings. I would expect them to be accurate enough for intonation. I've seen them in action and the swirling lights felt errily like the old strobe tuner I was used to.

Anyone ever used one of these Korg tuners for intonation? I need to get rid of my crappy Matrix foot pedal tuner. The response is so slow and down in the lower ranges, it hardly registers at all.

Plus I am planning on re-tuning my 5-string bass with much larger strings and a lower tuning so I am going to have to re-intonate.

Like I said, I suspect that the Korg would do a good job, but I wanted an opinion from somebody that has used both a good strobe and the Korg.
 
Codmate said:
Just out of interest - how is a 'virtual strobe' tuner any more accurate than any other digital tuner?

They're both digital devices right?

Digital vs. analog is not what is affecting the accuracy. Even within the realm of digital, there can be different sampling rates and resolutions. Why does a 320kbps, 44.1Khz mp3 sound better than a 64kbps, 22Khz mp3? They're both digital aren't they? Yes, but the first one has a much more accurate sampling and it also samples twice as fast.

So that takes care of the resolution of the actual internal sampling. What about the resolution of the display? Let's say we're talking about covering a range of +/- 25 cents:

Case 1 - Our first tuner just has 3 LED's. One for sharp, one for flat, and one for in-tune. They can't make the in-tune LED be EXACTLY 0 cents, because then it would never be solidly lit...instruments naturally fluctuate too much for that. So they might say that anything within +/- 5 cents will light the in-tune LED. Not very accurate.

Case 2 - This tuner has a needle. Better, because now we have completely variable display across the whole +/- 25 range. But if you've ever used one of these tuners, you have seen just how wild the fluctuations of the needle can be, even in an unwavering, directly inserted signal. Not very accurate.

Case 3 - Strobe tuner. Different concept. Instead of trying to show where exactly the tuning currently is, why not try showing how far away it is from where it's supposed to be? Instead of trying to give an actual representation of where the tuning is at, it uses a strobe that flashes slower and slower the closer you get to in-tune. If it ever happen to stop strobing entirely, then the tuning would be dead on. Our eyes can't really perceive the movement of a needle by 1/1000'th of an inch, but they sure as hell can tell us whether a light is flashing or not.
 
sile2001 said:
Digital vs. analog is not what is affecting the accuracy. Even within the realm of digital, there can be different sampling rates and resolutions. Why does a 320kbps, 44.1Khz mp3 sound better than a 64kbps, 22Khz mp3? They're both digital aren't they? Yes, but the first one has a much more accurate sampling and it also samples twice as fast.

So that takes care of the resolution of the actual internal sampling. What about the resolution of the display? Let's say we're talking about covering a range of +/- 25 cents:

Case 1 - Our first tuner just has 3 LED's. One for sharp, one for flat, and one for in-tune. They can't make the in-tune LED be EXACTLY 0 cents, because then it would never be solidly lit...instruments naturally fluctuate too much for that. So they might say that anything within +/- 5 cents will light the in-tune LED. Not very accurate.

Case 2 - This tuner has a needle. Better, because now we have completely variable display across the whole +/- 25 range. But if you've ever used one of these tuners, you have seen just how wild the fluctuations of the needle can be, even in an unwavering, directly inserted signal. Not very accurate.

Case 3 - Strobe tuner. Different concept. Instead of trying to show where exactly the tuning currently is, why not try showing how far away it is from where it's supposed to be? Instead of trying to give an actual representation of where the tuning is at, it uses a strobe that flashes slower and slower the closer you get to in-tune. If it ever happen to stop strobing entirely, then the tuning would be dead on. Our eyes can't really perceive the movement of a needle by 1/1000'th of an inch, but they sure as hell can tell us whether a light is flashing or not.

I understand about sampling rates etc, but I don't quite understand why they would be that much of a factor.
Surely the maximum sample rate that a guitar tuner would need would be twice the frequency of the top note on most guitars (top D). I can't be bothered to do the maths right now, but I don't think the rate would be *that* high.

Maybe I should go away and work this out properly - but instinct tells me that you don't need that great a sample rate to make a tuner work well.

I better understand what you're saying about the method of display - my Boss TU-2 also has a 'strobe mode'. Unfortunatly I find the strobe mode too slow to use on stage. I'll give it a go offstage though and see what I think.
The TU-2 has eleven LEDs, which I guess means it's not as bad as some, but maybe not as good as a needle.

The good thing is that those LEDs are very visible in a darkened club!

The only problem is that it won't tell you when your locking tuner has come loose, whch happened to me at the end of a week of touring recently ;)
 
Strobes are more of a backstage and intonation tuners. I doubt too many folks would use them during a gig. You see them backstage and in tech shops. You get it dead on then use a chromatic tuner during the gig.
 
sile2001 said:
Case 2 - This tuner has a needle. Better, because now we have completely variable display across the whole +/- 25 range. But if you've ever used one of these tuners, you have seen just how wild the fluctuations of the needle can be, even in an unwavering, directly inserted signal. Not very accurate.

But still better than the LED's.

Case 3 - Strobe tuner. Different concept. Instead of trying to show where exactly the tuning currently is, why not try showing how far away it is from where it's supposed to be? Instead of trying to give an actual representation of where the tuning is at, it uses a strobe that flashes slower and slower the closer you get to in-tune. If it ever happen to stop strobing entirely, then the tuning would be dead on. Our eyes can't really perceive the movement of a needle by 1/1000'th of an inch, but they sure as hell can tell us whether a light is flashing or not.


??? Have you ever used a Strobotuner? The display is a little black and white patterned wheel that is spun at different rates for different pitches, and the strobe section is an orange neon flash bulb that pulses at the fundamental of the signal input. What the user sees is a pie wedge shaped section of the wheel (it looks orange and black because of the neon flasher) which appears to rotate counterclockwise if the input signal is flat of the pitch of interest and clockwise if it is sharp. When the pattern appears to be stationary, the input signal is in tune. The user doesn't see anything that appears to flash or not; that's not what the strobe does.

Peterson digital strobe tuners have a display which emulates this interface, but the technology behind it is totally different.
 
ggunn said:
??? Have you ever used a Strobotuner? The display is a little black and white patterned wheel that is spun at different rates for different pitches, and the strobe section is an orange neon flash bulb that pulses at the fundamental of the signal input. What the user sees is a pie wedge shaped section of the wheel (it looks orange and black because of the neon flasher) which appears to rotate counterclockwise if the input signal is flat of the pitch of interest and clockwise if it is sharp.
Yes, I've used a strobe tuner. I wasn't explaining how to use one. I was talking about the concepts BEHIND strobe tuning. What you said at the end is exactly what I was talking about.
When the pattern appears to be stationary, the input signal is in tune. The user doesn't see anything that appears to flash or not; that's not what the strobe does.
Yeah, and if a pattern is stationary, wouldn't you say that nothing was flashing? Geez...the fights people try to pick...
 
Anybody here use a strobe on a turntable to tweak the speed? You know, the gizmo for playing LPs?
 
sile2001 said:
Yes, I've used a strobe tuner. I wasn't explaining how to use one. I was talking about the concepts BEHIND strobe tuning. What you said at the end is exactly what I was talking about.

Yeah, and if a pattern is stationary, wouldn't you say that nothing was flashing? Geez...the fights people try to pick...

I'm not trying to pick a fight, really, but...

When the pattern is stationary, nothing appears to be flashing, that's true, but nothing EVER appears to be flashing, sharp or flat. The indicator of being in tune is the stationary pattern, not any cessation of flashing. The only thing flashing in a Strobotuner is the neon lamp itself, which is always flashing (strobing) at the frequency of the input signal whether it is sharp, flat, or in tune. That is the concept behind strobe tuning.

If the display appears to flash, there is a problem with the input signal where the strobe is having trouble locking on to the frequency of the input.
 
ggunn said:
I'm not trying to pick a fight, really, but...

When the pattern is stationary, nothing appears to be flashing, that's true, but nothing EVER appears to be flashing, sharp or flat. The indicator of being in tune is the stationary pattern, not any cessation of flashing. The only thing flashing in a Strobotuner is the neon lamp itself, which is always flashing (strobing) at the frequency of the input signal whether it is sharp, flat, or in tune. That is the concept behind strobe tuning.

If the display appears to flash, there is a problem with the input signal where the strobe is having trouble locking on to the frequency of the input.

Basically, I think what you're seeing on a strobe tuner is a graphic representation of the beats between the actual pitch and the target pitch. So it's a visual equivalent of tuning one pitch to another by tuning away the beats.

FWIW, I have a Petersen VS-whatever virtual strobe tuner, which I use for everything from intonation to on-stage. I might use a Boss-type chromatic tuner on-stage (in a pinch), but I wouldn't consider it for intonation. But that's just me -- I have a pretty good ear, and an accurate guitar is just more enjoyable to play. Ultimately, your intonation only needs to be as good as your ear :)
 
uFu said:
Basically, I think what you're seeing on a strobe tuner is a graphic representation of the beats between the actual pitch and the target pitch. So it's a visual equivalent of tuning one pitch to another by tuning away the beats.

That's exactly it; the frequency of the orange and black regions moving through the center of the window is the beat frequency. If you've ever "frozen" the blades of a spinning fan with a frequency tunable strobe light, it's exactly the same principle.
 
There's a virtual strobe on G-Tune, tuning software by JHC Software. I think that it works very well during PC recording sessions. I use it to set my intonation and I was impressed with how accurate I could get.

The hardest part for me is the finger english and using a neutral amount of pressure to strike the string as well as fret the 12th fret. Plus like Ed said, the note changes pitch slightly as it decays after being struck.

How DO you all deal with this when setting intonation?
 
Apparently a good tip for using tuners is to roll off all the top end on the instrument being tuned, so that the fundamental comes through more clearly.

When you strike a string the note will go sharp for a brief time and then flatten out as the string vibrates more slowly. I don't know a method of compensating for this - you just have to take an average I guess.
 
Codmate said:
When you strike a string the note will go sharp for a brief time and then flatten out as the string vibrates more slowly. I don't know a method of compensating for this - you just have to take an average I guess.

To some extent, this is the basic problem with any approach to intonation on a guitar. You are trying to measure something that is changing with time. Some guesswork is involved, and the strength of the player is also a factor.

One quickly reaches a point of diminishing returns, where accuracy in the measurement gear is lost to other much larger factors.

Then there is the more basic issue of use. Set intonation, and then set guitar tune as both accurate. Then play a single 3 minute song with chords up and down the neck and a few string bends. Then check the tune again. It will have changed, usually by an amount that can be seen with most tuners.

Ed
 
Ed Dixon said:
To some extent, this is the basic problem with any approach to intonation on a guitar. You are trying to measure something that is changing with time. Some guesswork is involved, and the strength of the player is also a factor.

One quickly reaches a point of diminishing returns, where accuracy in the measurement gear is lost to other much larger factors.

Very true, some people definitely fret chords a lot harder than others and also inadvertently bend strings while they're fretting barre chords etc.

Then there is the more basic issue of use. Set intonation, and then set guitar tune as both accurate. Then play a single 3 minute song with chords up and down the neck and a few string bends. Then check the tune again. It will have changed, usually by an amount that can be seen with most tuners.

Ed

I get that 'going out of tune after three minutes' thing too, I've just had a graphite nut and some string trees fitted to alleviate it, they seem to have helped a bit, I might look into locking tuners too.
 
Codmate said:
Apparently a good tip for using tuners is to roll off all the top end on the instrument being tuned, so that the fundamental comes through more clearly.

I agree, although I've never found it necessary to touch the tone controls. I do always switch to the neck pickup when tuning -- seems to make it easier for the tuner to wade through all the harmonics to find the fundamental.

I guess it goes without saying that you wouldn't want any gain or compression stages in the signal path before the tuner either :)
 
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