Is there any mic better than the Neuman U87?

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Grimm Holiday

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A recording noobie here. I've been using that $200 Rode NTK mic, and it's nice, but it's very...clear? Like...how do I explain it, very dry? I guess dry is the word? I've researched that these Neuman mics, all our heroes used them, Bob Marley and the rest of the 70's cats.

Is there any mic that comes close to the Neuman sound that isn't $3000? What are your thoughts?
 
The AKG 414 has been compared to them, and many more. It is the swiss army knife of all time. The AKG 414 might well be the most superior of microphones not $3000. Like $600.
 
Better for what? Different sources benefit from different mics. A U87 is a great studio vocal mic for many singers, and great on a lot of instrument sources, but that doesn't mean it's always the best choice.
 
A better mic than a U87? I can think of many. To name a few - Any version of Sony C37 or C38, Sony C48, some but not all versions of the AKG 414, and from the Sennheiser mkh series, the 405, 406, and 40.
 
Sorry, I should have listed source sound! Vocals! I'll look into the AKG 414, Lazer! Thanks a lot. Rruskin, what versions of the AKG 414 are no-no's in your book? Thanks for the list, truly. it really gives me some guidance here. Very tired of my current mic!

edit: Looking for something I can record my vocals and acoustic guitar into!
 
I'm new to the C414 experience. I bought myself a matched pair of C414 XLS for Xmas this year. Stellar mics, but not very flattering to vocals. At least, not lead vocals. They're too flat for lead vocals. I've loved it for spoken word, drum overheads, acoustic guitar so far. But it's very uninspiring on lead vocals, kind of like a Shure SM81. Actually, so far they've spoken to me like a large diaphragm version of the SM81. The C414 are just way more versatile with all of the polar patterns and low cut options. They're just terrific mics so far, but I'm still in the honeymoon phase with them.

The C414 XLII is the version with that classic vocal presence peak. It'd be less versatile than the flatter XLS, but it'd flatter lead vocals and acoustic guitar more.

Neuman makes the TLM 103 and TLM 102 that are kind of the same idea: the 102 has the presence peak and the 103 doesn't.

On the budget end of the spectrum, I'd look at a Lewitt LCT 440 PURE. I've had one for a few years now and it keeps impressing me for lead vocals. It's just got that "something" in its frequency response. It's the no-frills version of their pricier mics. Same capsule, just no pad, low cut, dual diaphragm or other bells and whistles of their higher models.

Anyways, hopefully this comes in handy as you continue shopping. There are so many terrific options out there. It's a great time in history to be shopping for microphones.
 
Tadpui said:
I'm new to the C414 experience. I bought myself a matched pair of C414 XLS for Xmas this year. Stellar mics, but not very flattering to vocals. At least, not lead vocals. They're too flat for lead vocals. I've loved it for spoken word, drum overheads, acoustic guitar so far. But it's very uninspiring on lead vocals, kind of like a Shure SM81. Actually, so far they've spoken to me like a large diaphragm version of the SM81.

The C414 XLII is the version with that classic vocal presence peak. It'd be less versatile than the flatter XLS, but it'd flatter lead vocals and acoustic guitar more.

Neuman makes the TLM 103 and TLM 102 that are kind of the same idea: the 102 has the presence peak and the 103 doesn't.

On the budget end of the spectrum, I'd look at a Lewitt LCT 440 PURE. I've had one for a few years now and it keeps impressing me for lead vocals. It's just got that "something" in its frequency response. It's the no-frills version of their pricier mics. Same capsule, just no pad, low cut, dual diaphragm or other bells and whistles of their higher models.

Anyways, hopefully this comes in handy as you continue shopping. There are so many terrific options out there. It's a great time in history to be shopping for microphones.
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Hey, thanks so much for sharing and this info! I just listened to some samples of the 414's and you're right! It sounds...sharp? Like when you turn the sharpness up on a photo. Am I wrong saying that? I listened to some Sony C37 samples and I really dig the warmth and colour in that mic. I'll check out the Lewitt LCT 440 PURE, as I am on a budget :) Also, why did you buy two of them, if you don't mind me asking? Which sources are you recording simultaneously? I'm new to recording, myself. :)

edit: listening to samples of the Lewitt LCT 440 PURE on youtube: VERY nice! I really dig the blunted sound it has, while feeling like a warm hug? I can't explain the sound, haha. It's really nice. AND affordable?! Dig it.

double edit: now, there's gotta be something like the Lewitt LCT 440 PURE but with an added boost of warmth, right? I imagine it would be like $600 range, there's gotta be a mic out there like that.
 
Grimm Holiday said:
Hey, thanks so much for sharing and this info! I just listened to some samples of the 414's and you're right! It sounds...sharp? Like when you turn the sharpness up on a photo. Am I wrong saying that? I listened to some Sony C37 samples and I really dig the warmth and colour in that mic. I'll check out the Lewitt LCT 440 PURE, as I am on a budget :) Also, why did you buy two of them, if you don't mind me asking? Which sources are you recording simultaneously? I'm new to recording, myself. :)

edit: listening to samples of the Lewitt LCT 440 PURE on youtube: VERY nice! I really dig the blunted sound it has, while feeling like a warm hug? I can't explain the sound, haha. It's really nice. AND affordable?! Dig it.

double edit: now, there's gotta be something like the Lewitt LCT 440 PURE but with an added boost of warmth, right? I imagine it would be like $600 range, there's gotta be a mic out there like that.
Click to expand...

You're very welcome! As the days roll onwards, you'll most likely get a ton more suggestions from other users that have direct experience with a bunch of other microphones. My mic locker is growing, but it's not vast. Yet :D

I bought two of the C414 XLS (and Shure SM81, and Fathead ribbons, and SM57) because I tend to record a variety of instruments in my home studio. Sometimes, a stereo mic setup is preferable for things like drum overheads, acoustic guitar, ensemble vocals, or whatever. Or sometimes just a dual mic setup is nice, even if it's not in stereo. Picking up different characteristics of a voice or instruments based on mic placement, then combining them. There are all sorts of fun things to do with a matched pair of microphones.

If you like the Lewitt LCT 440, you might also check out the Rode NT1 and NT1A. I think that the LCT 440 is a direct competitor to the NT1A, but I don't have direct experience with any of Rode's mics. But they're hugely popular for a reason, I'd bet. Great customer service, from what I understand.

There are some other up and coming brands like Roswell (check out their Mini K47), Warm Audio (their WA-87 gets rave reviews, and is a U87 "clone"), Mojave Audio, Aston, and JZ. All of those brands make at least 1 mic in the $600-ish price range and have very good reputations for solid performance.
 
I've never really had a lot of luck with 414s. Note that there are several versions.

Vocals are all over the map. What works great on one might be so-so or awful on another. It's a custom fit kind of thing, so you have to try to know. While a U87 will be great on many voices, some are better on an RE20 while others will shine with an R121. Sometimes the right mic is an SM57.
 
Try a 414 XLII with a nice preamp, like a UA 610. Put it on Supercard. Low cut 'on'. On voice use the XLII as suggested.

They were on holiday sale a short time ago. $600.

If you like the SM57 , compare it with a Senn MD421. That would be my go to Dynamic.

A hard pass on the RE20. Good for the kick drum.

Hard pass on back electret designs.
 
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Grimm Holiday said:
AKG C214 - Cardioid Condenser - Long & McQuade Musical Instruments

What about this AKG, guys?

The 414 version is twice the $:

AKG C414 XLS - 9 Pattern Large Diaphragm Condenser Mic - Long & McQuade Musical Instruments
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The AKG C214 is a decent mic - it was my only LDC for a while, but it is not the same as the C414 (any version), by all accounts. It can be a little bright, but it's fairly easy to tame IME. These days I use it for acoustic guitar. My other LDC is the Miktek MK300, which I find to be smoother and just a bit nicer for voice. It works well for acoustic guitar, too.
 
Grimm Holiday said:
A recording noobie here. I've been using that $200 Rode NTK mic, and it's nice, but it's very...clear? Like...how do I explain it, very dry?
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You've got plenty of thoughts on different/better/best but I'm curious what you mean by dry.
Fully understanding what you don't like is the best weapon in working out how to fix it.

Generally when we talk about things being dry we mean without effects(natural or post processing).
More/less delay or reverb (or chorus or whatever) is usually called wetter/drier.

The more common problem with home recording is that the recording, due to lack of acoustic treatment, sounds 'wet' with reverb.
An apartment bedroom or whatever usually sounds echoey and people are looking for a way to make it sound drier, or deader.

If you're having the opposite problem you might want to experiment with subtle delays and reverbs and see how that goes?
It depends what you're doing, of course. For all-out rock vocals you might want a reasonably audible reverb whereas for voiceover you might want something really short and tight just to take the edge off.

If the natural sound of your room happens to be nice then you might just experiment with having the microphone slightly farther away from you.
Even an inch or two difference can result in capturing much more of the room's reverberations.
 
Steenamaroo said:
You've got plenty of thoughts on different/better/best but I'm curious what you mean by dry.
Fully understanding what you don't like is the best weapon in working out how to fix it.

Generally when we talk about things being dry we mean without effects(natural or post processing).
More/less delay or reverb (or chorus or whatever) is usually called wetter/drier.

The more common problem with home recording is that the recording, due to lack of acoustic treatment, sounds 'wet' with reverb.
An apartment bedroom or whatever usually sounds echoey and people are looking for a way to make it sound drier, or deader.

If you're having the opposite problem you might want to experiment with subtle delays and reverbs and see how that goes?
It depends what you're doing, of course. For all-out rock vocals you might want a reasonably audible reverb whereas for voiceover you might want something really short and tight just to take the edge off.

If the natural sound of your room happens to be nice then you might just experiment with having the microphone slightly farther away from you.
Even an inch or two difference can result in capturing much more of the room's reverberations.
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Thanks for clarifying this for me. I knew the "dry" descriptor was off, haha. I record in the little den I stay in, it's got terrible acoustics but I make it work for my lil hippie folk demos. I think I need to get one of those foamy sound shields. I'll also experiment getting further away from the mic. Thanks a ton!

tadpui said:
You're very welcome! As the days roll onwards, you'll most likely get a ton more suggestions from other users that have direct experience with a bunch of other microphones. My mic locker is growing, but it's not vast. Yet

I bought two of the C414 XLS (and Shure SM81, and Fathead ribbons, and SM57) because I tend to record a variety of instruments in my home studio. Sometimes, a stereo mic setup is preferable for things like drum overheads, acoustic guitar, ensemble vocals, or whatever. Or sometimes just a dual mic setup is nice, even if it's not in stereo. Picking up different characteristics of a voice or instruments based on mic placement, then combining them. There are all sorts of fun things to do with a matched pair of microphones.

If you like the Lewitt LCT 440, you might also check out the Rode NT1 and NT1A. I think that the LCT 440 is a direct competitor to the NT1A, but I don't have direct experience with any of Rode's mics. But they're hugely popular for a reason, I'd bet. Great customer service, from what I understand.

There are some other up and coming brands like Roswell (check out their Mini K47), Warm Audio (their WA-87 gets rave reviews, and is a U87 "clone"), Mojave Audio, Aston, and JZ. All of those brands make at least 1 mic in the $600-ish price range and have very good reputations for solid performance
Click to expand...

I should try recording with two mic's, that would be neat! Do you then pan each to a different side? (for acoustic guitar and/or vocals?)

I have the Rode NT1 or the NT1A, whichever one was around $300. It's...good. But very crisp? Maybe I'm looking for something that doesn't exist! That Neuman U87 sounds warm, doesn't it? I'll check out that WA-87, and added the rest to a note I've been building here of everyone's suggestions.

bouldersoundguy said:
I've never really had a lot of luck with 414s. Note that there are several versions.

Vocals are all over the map. What works great on one might be so-so or awful on another. It's a custom fit kind of thing, so you have to try to know. While a U87 will be great on many voices, some are better on an RE20 while others will shine with an R121. Sometimes the right mic is an SM57.
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You know, I should get a couple SM57's. There's a reason they're so widely used right? I've just been using my Rode NT1A ( I found out it is a NT1-A) for everything, acoustic and vocals.

tadpui said:
Even better, Audio Test Kitchen lets you audition over 300 microphones on their website: Audio Test Kitchen | Compare the gear. Trust your ears.
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Now THIS is neat. Thank you! God, technology has come a long way, huh? Holy cow. Cheers!

I've been making a list of all your recommendations, researching each piece at a time. Truly, I appreciate it. Thanks!
 
I wouldn't label any 414 version a "no-no" but some are not to my taste. Early EB-P48's I auditioned were too dull while the even earlier EB's were too shrill. I'm partial to the AKG 414-TLII. It works well on most voices and is surprisingly good on acoustic guitar and percussion. If I had the budget, I'd buy an original C12A which in my estimation is near perfect.
 
The RE20 isn't all bad either. There is nothing it does I find that is remarkable.

I wouldn't try to replace a dynamic with an LDC ,but sometimes.

A nice dynamic can do the job. I like that MD421. Every time I use a SM57/58 to do something the 421 does it better. So better than a U87, no, but it could be something to compare.

If you have a NT1, that is a nice one. Transformerless, and low self noise, so it will sound a little blank. People use them for voice and get LDC results.
 
LazerBeakShiek said:
If you like the SM57 , compare it with a Senn MD421. That would be my go to Dynamic.
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Which one? What source?

LazerBeakShiek said:
A hard pass on the RE20. Good for the kick drum.

Hard pass on back electret designs.
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Interesting. The RE20 has a fairly flat response and a wide frequency range. The "Variable D" cardioid pattern reduces proximity effect and has excellent off axis response (unlike the 57 or 421), making it behave a bit more like an omni than a cardioid. They can be good on bass amp and horns. Vocals are an extremely hit and miss source, and the RE20 can be a serious contender along with Neumanns or anything else you might have. It's one of those mics where if all you had to make the entire record was an RE20, you could do it. It's one of the best moving coil mics, along with others like the 441, SM7 and M88 but they're all different.

"Dynamic" microphones also include ribbon mics which are not moving coil designs. It's a different animal.

There are also some high quality electret designs. I wouldn't dismiss an entire design type when individual mic models of any design type will all be somewhat unique in what they do. There are heroes and lemons regardless of the operating principle. Electrets might be especially useful for field work where you might not have access to a full fat phantom power supply. But some of them are just good mics.

The thing with microphones is that if you take one example and exhaust all the possibilities for mic placement on as many different sources as you can, you might find areas where that mic shines on that type of source for that kind of track. Placement is usually more important than what the microphone is. Adding different mics to the collection is like having different screwdrivers in the tool box.

Other considerations that will greatly influence the capture include the source. Performance, arrangement, instrument and room acoustics.
 
I've got the Rode NT1, and I like it partly because it doesn't have the big presence peak that many other mics have, including the NT1a. I already had a few mics that had a top end bump.

There are a lot of comparisons on Youtube, and sometimes you really need good headphones or monitors to the hear subtle differences between different mics. One thing that confirms to me is that those minute difference can be swamped with a bit of change in your recording setup. A touch closer, and the proximity boost will warm things up. A turn of the head can cut some of the sibilance.

In a skilled hand with a good room and an excellent source (like a really good singer or player) many mics can sound outstanding. I've heard one singer use everything from a TLM102, RE20, SM7B, and U87. She sounds outstanding on all of them. Using a U87 on me would be a total waste.

On the other hand, its nice to have a variety of tools in the toolbox.

Besides Audio Kitchen, you can download hi rez audio files from Sweetwater for 50 different mics, including the NT1a. Prices range from $200 to $10,000. Give them a listen and see if there is anything that stands out. sweetwater vocal-mic-shootout
 
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