is post editing an out of time take ruining musicianship?

Br3n

New member
So this is an open discussion on editing bad takes instead of making the decision to do the take again.

Are to many artist relying to much on the recording/mixing engineer to fix there bad playing and is this ruining the process of recording.

I personally have the player give me a really well played part no matter how many times it is played over just making do because its taking to long.

What are people thoughts in this?
 
An exceptional musician will always be able to land good takes and, if they're having an off day, they'll put in the time to get it right. I don't think it's really a matter of musicianship being ruined, but more likely that less good musicians are finding their way into the studio.

Editing can make up for a lot of short comings, but personally, nothing sounds better to me than a great take. As a musician I'll always play it one more time just for safety, but as a producer I usually won't force anyone to work harder than they are willing to (though I try to encourage it). It's good to always keep an open ear though, and make sure that unexpected moments aren't written off as mistakes all the time - sometimes that's where the magic is.
 
Agreed. But to what point do you stop aiming for the perfect take? I have sat through 110ish takes of a 20 second guitar solo to find that take 111 was spectacular and the one we wanted. All the other takes where good and could have been used when do say enough is enough?
 
That's tough to say because the perfect take is a pretty elusive concept, though you usually know it when you hear it. If you take too many takes with a fairly consistent musician then it can be a lot like splitting hairs. It's difficult because it's not exactly quantifiable. There could always be a better take down the line.
I think it takes a lot of collaboration with the player. They will know when they've played something better than they have before. I can't tell you how many times I've been iffy on a first take then recorded it another 4-5 times just for safety, just to end up really digging the original. I have found that it's rare for a bored or frustrated player to produce a great take.

Of course there are no hard and fast rules to any of this, it's all about the collaboration and feel.
 
Yeah that's fair. I find that a lot of it has to be the musician to be happy to a degree as if I hear something and don't say something but the musician doesn't I find he hears it later when its to late to rerecord.
 
To answer the the specific title of the thread, I'd say that it doesn't matter how you get there, as long as you get there. What I mean is the old "If it sounds good, it is good". Take your favorite song, do you know exactly how they recorded it? Probably not. For all you know, they recorded one note at a time and the tune has 1,649 punch-ins. But the final product sounds great to you. So, basically, it's nice to talk about "human feel" and doing everything in one take, and all that. But the bottom line is, if the final product sounds great, nobody knows or cares how that happened.
 
To answer the the specific title of the thread, I'd say that it doesn't matter how you get there, as long as you get there. What I mean is the old "If it sounds good, it is good". Take your favorite song, do you know exactly how they recorded it? Probably not. For all you know, they recorded one note at a time and the tune has 1,649 punch-ins. But the final product sounds great to you. So, basically, it's nice to talk about "human feel" and doing everything in one take, and all that. But the bottom line is, if the final product sounds great, nobody knows or cares how that happened.

^^^^^This ^^^^^
 
Some of he problem is budget. If you are paying by the hour and having an off day, it might be more cost effective to just edit.

Besides 'red light fever' and the general pressures of being in a strange place with people watching you, the simple fact that you feel obligated to perform perfectly that specific day at that specific time, otherwise you are wasting the tiny amount of money you habe to invest in it, it can really screw with your head and throw you off your gamw.

BTW: TOO and TO are two different words. It's too late to record.

I apologize for being grammer police today, it just made the post really hard to read this morning.
 
I have sat through 110ish takes of a 20 second guitar solo....


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See....for me, the cut-off would be 105 takes... :D ...so I guess I would never hear that 111th "perfect" take. ;)


The way I look at it....if you need 111 takes to get the perfect one....then it's really about getting lucky, and nothing more.
So how's that any better or more "real", than doing 3-5 really good takes, and just comping to one?
Do you think anyone on the planet besides you and the player will know that you comped or that you spent 2 days until take 111 happend...?

If the player simply needs 110 takes to perfect his lead....then he should practice it before even doing take 1.
 
If you're writing the guitar solo while recording then it could easily take hours and dozens of takes to build one good take. I've done that on a few of the songs I've written - I remember hitting 72 takes on one lead I did. (the track were all re-numbered somehow in Sonar). But that's on my own time at home. If I were going into someone else's studio I would probably have the solos down before I started recording. It's all dependent on who's buck it is.
 
For me I personally got rid of my daw and went back to a tape based(sorta kinda) studio for this reason. So as many takes I need to get to that near perfect take is what I like. I produce and record metal and rock bands and I really hate machine gun triggered quantized kicks. I'll have singer with at least 3 tracks at drop it down to one good take. I like tiny imperfections that make the track sound real.
 
Some of he problem is budget. If you are paying by the hour and having an off day, it might be more cost effective to just edit.

This.

I'm all about making things as human as possible, but when I'm paying musicians who have limited time (and are budget, I'm not hiring seasoned pros or anything) and for some stuff, actually renting out a really nice studio, I get something like 98% there, sounds great overall, but can't get more due to time and money. But there's an iffy note here, a rushed section here. I've gotten super good at editing in Reaper, I'm fast at it and I can make things super seamless.

Or even with my drum parts, if my drums have been tuned differently and I find issues later on once I've recorded other things (happens all the time with my current project) I'll edit.

Retracking is faster and almost always sounds better when you have a good take, but I have virtually unlimited amount of time to edit free of charge. So I'll utilize that tool if I have to, but I do not ever record ANYTHING with the mindset of "eh, I'll edit it later." If I have to edit something once we're done tracking, then I will.
 
I record lots of classical piano, with a superb pianist, and when we first started, he'd play the entire piece in one go. Maybe 3-5 minutes, that's all. He'd make a tiny mistake, and play the whole thing again. Often curing the first fault but making a new one. My the fourth take the mistakes increase and in the end, we'd give up, and sometimes, the released track would have a tiny mistake in it. Often, only serious pianists with a good knowledge of the work would ever notice. Then I suggested a new process. The form of the music might be ABA, for example so why not record the first section, and then stop. Do it again if there is a mistake, but if not, then move on. It took far less time to stitch these back together in the studio afterwards, and the result is a much better recording. There's a difference from producing a good recording from an inept player by editing, and doing the same thing with a skilled player. However, as it's private, and nobody really knows, does it matter to anyone other than those present. My pianist colleague gets very stressed when he makes mistakes and it comes through in the music. I've now introduced him to the concept of recording on a master keyboard and then using a VSTi of the same piano as he has. At first he wasn't sure, but the delicacy of editing he's now using as a tool. We play a phrase, he thinks it's not quite right - we look at it on screen and he can 'see' the slightly too short Ab, and we can stretch it. He is now a convert. Sound wise, he cannot tell the difference between his umpteen thousand pounds worth of grand piano and the VSTi. I can, and although his piano sounds slightly better to my ears, his room doesn't - and the acoustics in the sample are better.

So in my humble view, editing is improving musicianship - just afterwards, not during!
 
If the player simply needs 110 takes to perfect his lead....then he should practice it before even doing take 1.

If you're going to need 110 takes to get the part right, then the first 100 should be at home on your own time.
(Or as was suggested, record at home on your own time and use as many takes and edits as you want/need)
 
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