Is peaking a bad thing?

[thyhoneynut]

I know peaking isn't the greatest thing...or it's not supposed to be a good thing....

I'm working FL studio 10, it only peaks when the bass drum hits. But when I turn down the bass drum in the mixer
I feel like it may not be loud enough...Or I feel like it should be louder.. but then I'm back to the peaking.

need help please.

 

[Farview]

That means you are mixing too loud. Everything needs to come down. You should be able to take the easy way out and just lower the master fader and continue mixing.

 

[Lt. Bob]

I know peaking isn't the greatest thing...or it's not supposed to be a good thing....

I'm working FL studio 10, it only peaks when the bass drum hits. But when I turn down the bass drum in the mixer
I feel like it may not be loud enough...Or I feel like it should be louder.. but then I'm back to the peaking.

need help please.

you're possibly tracking everything else too hot. You should be recording around -12db.

Having said that ..... in general peaking in digital results in a nasty sounding distortion ........ but I have found that some transient sounds like drums can sometimes not have any audible effects from occassional peaks.

And to be clear ..... what we're talking about is exceeding the peak level and going into the red right?

 

[thyhoneynut]

hey, you're right! I was able to take the easy way out. But why is peaking such a bad thing?

 

[Steenamaroo]

Yehp. Everything else is too loud.

Worry about the master volume later on. For now, turn your speakers up.

 

[Armistice]

Why is hitting your head against a brick wall a bad thing?

It hurts....

Same thing.

 

[thyhoneynut]

Why is hitting your head against a brick wall a bad thing?

It hurts....

Same thing.

lol...terrible analogy. but okay.

 

[RAMI]

I know 4 other people have already said it, but it can't be said enough. Not only is "peaking", also known as "clipping", also known as "distortion", not a good thing...but there's no reason to come anywhere close to peaking. It doesn't make anything sound better, and only increases the chances of the mix over-loading.

Just turn all the instruments down by the same amount, like 10db, and you'll have all kinds of room for your bass drum.

 

[Chili]

But why is peaking such a bad thing?

In the digital realm, peaking, clipping, etc, happens when you hit the maximum number of the converter. In a 16bit system, the range of conversion is 0 - 65,535. Most times, the incoming signal will fall somewhere in between and the converter will spit out a representative number and send it to the computer. If the incoming signal goes higher or peaks, the converter will stop at the max number of 65,535 and keep spitting it out until the signal drops back down below it again. So the tops of the peak will be flat because teh converter doesn't go any higher. That flat top is called a clip.

That's the technical reason. The real world reason is because it sounds horrible.

 

[PRHunt]

It should also be mentioned that you can clip the converter even if the analogue input is not distorted itself. It's just basically that the converter runs out of numbers.

Some preamps sound good when pushed to higher outputs, which can overload the input at the converter. This is the time to insert a pad between preamp (or other source) and converter.

Paul

 

[Farview]

hey, you're right! I was able to take the easy way out. But why is peaking such a bad thing?

Assuming you have worked on the sound of your kick and got it the way you want it, why would you clip it and lose the first transient. In other words, clipping changes the signal and its not something you can fix at a later time.

Analog clipping can sound nice in certain context, digital clipping sounds bad universally.

 

[Lt. Bob]

Analog clipping can sound nice in certain context, digital clipping sounds bad universally.

well, probably should just make it always bad without exception for a newbie but I HAVE had times when something went into clipping and had no audible effect. Does that mean it barely clipped? Or maybe the meter showed it in the red but it didn't actually clip? Or maybe it clipped for such a brief period of time the nastiness was kept too short to matter?
Or certain things are less affected by that clipping?
What's the reason for that?

Anyone know?

 

[Chili]

well, probably should just make it always bad without exception for a newbie but I HAVE had times when something went into clipping and had no audible effect. Does that mean it barely clipped? Or maybe the meter showed it in the red but it didn't actually clip? Or maybe it clipped for such a brief period of time the nastiness was kept too short to matter?
Or certain things are less affected by that clipping?
What's the reason for that?

Anyone know?

I've always wondered the same thing. Perhaps for short transients the distortion to the wave form is so small and the duration is so quick that we can't hear it. Maybe this is where 32bit floating point conversion comes into play and the clipping is not a hard and fast point in software.

If you see the clip indicator on your interface light up but don't hear it, maybe there's a little headroom left. Or maybe the analog side goes over a certain voltage. What was that voltage level that represents Zero db in the analog world??

I have seen clipping in both my interface and DAW and never heard it. And then I've seen clipping in both and it sounds horrible.

 

[Farview]

There is no way to measure something above 0dbfs, because there is nothing above that. So what it does is count how many full scale samples happen in a row and assume that a certain number of consecutive full scale samples means the signal went beyond the limit. The red 'clip' light turns on when the number of consecutive full scale samples that the designer set is reached.

If the designer decided to turn the clip light on after 3 samples, it's very possible that the clip light could be turned on by a signal that really didn't clip, or went 'over' by a fraction of a db, and you just won't notice a difference.

Clipping of individual channels during a mix doesn't matter much because all DAWs use at least 32 bit floating point math, which gives you a virtually unlimited dynamic range. It only turns into a problem when you are clipping the master buss, because that is the point where it gets sent to the converters, which are fixed point and have a finite amount of dynamic range.

 

[Lt. Bob]

There is no way to measure something above 0dbfs, because there is nothing above that. So what it does is count how many full scale samples happen in a row and assume that a certain number of consecutive full scale samples means the signal went beyond the limit. The red 'clip' light turns on when the number of consecutive full scale samples that the designer set is reached.

If the designer decided to turn the clip light on after 3 samples, it's very possible that the clip light could be turned on by a signal that really didn't clip, or went 'over' by a fraction of a db, and you just won't notice a difference.

Clipping of individual channels during a mix doesn't matter much because all DAWs use at least 32 bit floating point math, which gives you a virtually unlimited dynamic range. It only turns into a problem when you are clipping the master buss, because that is the point where it gets sent to the converters, which are fixed point and have a finite amount of dynamic range.

interesting ...... so IF a signal went on for 5 minutes at 0db but NEVER went above it the clip light would still be screaming CLIPPING.


As for the 32 bit thing ....... I use a Fostex D1624 for my recording. I'm assuming that 32bit thing doesn't apply to a hardware digital recorder.
But I still get occassions where I see clip lights but hear no problem.
So is that the sampling thing or do hardware recorders also process at a higher bit size while ITB?

 

[mixsit]

Once your tracks are ITB you're opperating within the extra headroom of the daw.
Whatever amount of clipping and audible or not distortion done hitting the recorder is for keeps.

I've had many occasions not only on drums or such bot vocals, bass etc were what looked like solid overs where I thought 'this will need a re-do, were in fact ok.

 

[Lt. Bob]

Once your tracks are ITB you're opperating within the extra headroom of the daw.
.

I'm never ITB in that sense.
I meant ITB as in within that metal box that is the d1624.

I do zero ...... nothing ....... nada with a computer DAW.
I don't upload the tracks to mix them ITB.
All mixing is done from the audio outputs of the 16 track Fostex into an analog board and mixed down to a Masterlink.

 

[mixsit]

I'm never ITB in that sense.
I meant ITB as in within that metal box that is the d1624.

All mixing is done from the audio outputs of the 16 track Fostex into an analog board and mixed down to a Masterlink.

Got me. Nice play.
So, what processing would that be that you do do In That Box

 

[Lt. Bob]

Got me. Nice play.
So, what processing would that be that you do do In That Box

well, I was referring to the processing that goes on to record something.
That's about all the Fostex does is record .... you can do some cutting and pasting and insert points but that's about it.
But simply recording is processing.

 

[Farview]

interesting ...... so IF a signal went on for 5 minutes at 0db but NEVER went above it the clip light would still be screaming CLIPPING.

Yes, but the only way that could happen is if you were running DC current into it at full scale. Remember, each cycle of a wave will only be so many samples long. The lower the frequency, the more samples will be used to capture it. The higher the frequency, the less samples.

In a perfect world, something that peaks at 0dbfs would only have one sample that is a 0dbfs which will represent the very tippy-top of the waveform. That will not trigger the clip light. But if you turn the volume of the wave up a little more, the peak will be squared off and the converter will spit out consecutive 0dbfs samples until the waveform drops back below that level.

If they make the clip light really sensitive, you could just be clipping a few samples and you won't notice something like that. (mainly because it's clipping for such a short time, you can't hear it. Imagine how short a period of time 1/44100 of a second is. Even if you multiply it by 10, it still goes by really quick)

As for the 32 bit thing ....... I use a Fostex D1624 for my recording. I'm assuming that 32bit thing doesn't apply to a hardware digital recorder.
But I still get occassions where I see clip lights but hear no problem.
So is that the sampling thing or do hardware recorders also process at a higher bit size while ITB?

You would have to look that up for your machine. I know the Roland 2480 was just 24 bit fixed point and it was really easy to clip at any stage of the mixer. Unfortunately, with that sort of a setup, you can be clipping the crap out of the mix buss, and if you turn the master fader down it will turn off the clip light but you are still clipping the mix buss.

Like anything in audio, if you don't hear a problem, it's not a problem. There is really no reason to be mixing or recording that hot, but if it isn't causing audible problems...