Is my guitar tech up in the night?

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therage!

therage!

Wicked Machine
The guy has years of experience and does good work but last night I dropped off my RG Ibanez and I noticed he does not have a strobe tuner. Some of you guys have said here that if you want accurate intonation you have to use a strobe tuner. I'm not a tech (I setup my strat and Bass but that's about it) and would like to bring this issue up with him but not offend him in any way.

How would you guys deal with this? And our strobe tuners really necessary?
 
I'm not sure I would lose any sleep over that one. If the guy does good work would be my primary consideration.

Intonation is usually more driven by playing style than the last small percentage that a digital tuner might offer over good ears. A perfectly setup guitar with perfect intonation will play sharp for someone with vary hard finger action and differently for someone with a light touch. To really reach the last settings one would want to have the owner play and judge from that.

Ed
 
Ed Dixon said:
I'm not sure I would lose any sleep over that one. If the guy does good work would be my primary consideration.
Ed
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That was kind of my thinking. I do my own intonation on a few guitars and everything sounds good to me and others and I don't have a strobe tuner. I've never had any reson to complain about his work so yeah, maybe I shoudn't lose any sleep over it.:)
 
A strobe tuner is FAR more accurate than a digital tuner. A strobe tuner is accurate to within less than a quarter of cent. Most digital tuners can only get within three or four cents. My ear can get within a cent or two. Most peoples can get about as good as a digital tuner, I just happen to tune about 50-60 guitars a week, which improves my ear more than it improves my playing.

There is no question, however, that you need to have a strobe tuner if you want to get intonation set right. The difference is quite a big deal, as the discrepancies get amplified as you go further up the neck.


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi
 
Light said:

There is no question, however, that you need to have a strobe tuner if you want to get intonation set right. The difference is quite a big deal, as the discrepancies get amplified as you go further up the neck.
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Thanks Light

When I pick up my axe I'm gonna ask him if he ever uses a strobe for intonation. I haven't seen one on his bench but I don't hang around to watch him work. I'm kind of bothered by this in that you sound very professional and that's what I want when dealing with a tech. He's close to my house so it's convenient but I don't mind driving across town if I get higher quality service.

Sounds like I should get a strobe for myself since I'm doing some basic set up's on my own. I keep hearing about these virtual strobes that don't cost and arm and leg. I'll do a search since I imagine you guys have probably talked about them here.
 
Well, come into our shop and you won't see a strobe on anyone’s bench. It lives by the amp, which is where it gets used. We actually have two, because we absolutely can not be without it, and one of them tends to break about once a year.

I have not tried the virtual strobes yet, but I have heard good things about them. They are certainly less expensive, but still by no means cheap. A Peterson Virtual Strobe is still over $200.00. Now, that is better than the $600 for an analog strobe, but it seems like a lot if you are not using it professionally, at least to me. Just strobing out a guitar is pretty cheap. We charge about $20 for it, if there is no other setup work. And we are an expensive shop.


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi
 
By digital tuner, I mean an electronic means that provides an accurate result. There are different ways to do this, and they generally are more accurate than most ears. I believe all would agree on this point.

However, an electronic device cannot predict user playing style, and that factor can override by a considerable amount, the differences.

Ed
 
It is impossible to set the intonation on my Gibson ES335 . The saddles do not have enough travel to accomplish it. I have allready tried with a strobe turner, I can get close, but no cigar.

I have not heard anyone complain yet, including myself as to the guitar being out of tune.
 
dragonworks said:
It is impossible to set the intonation on my Gibson ES335 . The saddles do not have enough travel to accomplish it. I have allready tried with a strobe turner, I can get close, but no cigar.
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I assume that is one of the old ABR-1 type bridges. That is a chronic problem with those bridges, as they just where not designed with enough travel to do the job if they are not in exactly the right place. That is why Gibson started making the Nashville style Tune-o-matics, which are much easier to locate. They still need more precision than a Strat bridge, but they are much better.


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi
 
Ed Dixon said:
By digital tuner, I mean an electronic means that provides an accurate result. There are different ways to do this, and they generally are more accurate than most ears. I believe all would agree on this point.
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No, actually, most electronic tuners are considerably less accurate than an average musicians ears, at least if they have ever learned to tune by ear. Digital tuners can be as good as the average musician, but they are no where near being good enough to do a professional job of intonating a guitar. Like I said above, digital tuners are only accurate to within a few cents. A strobe tuner is accurate to within less than a quarter of a cent. There is no question which one is more accurate, and doing a professional job of intonating a guitar is just not possible with out a strobe tuner.

Of course, that is strobe tuning, but actually tuning up to play is a totally different issue. Tuners, whether digital or strobe, can do a fine job of getting your guitar tuned to theoretical (and legally defined) pitches, but they don't take into account the necessity of stretching the tuning on your guitar. Anyone who can tune a guitar by ear will always be dissatisfied with the results of tuning to any tuner. If you don't tune your guitar by ear, you are not playing in tune. My high "E" string, when I tune by ear, is just a few cents sharp, according to the tuner, but if I don't do that, a lot of the chords I play sound out of tune.

But that is a different issue all together.


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi
 
Light said:
I assume that is one of the old ABR-1 type bridges. That is a chronic problem with those bridges, as they just where not designed with enough travel to do the job if they are not in exactly the right place. That is why Gibson started making the Nashville style Tune-o-matics, which are much easier to locate. They still need more precision than a Strat bridge, but they are much better.


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi
Click to expand...

Once again mr light, you are correct. one of these days i will get a new bridge when i have a job.
 
The documentation for my digital tuner says it has accuracy to within less than a half of a cent. I am thinking that this does a pretty good job for me unless you think a strobe tuner is really that much better. I guess I am wondering if I am going to see an improvement that is worth the price. Is the extra quarter cent accuracy what I get for the money or is there some other mojo I don't know about?

oh and btw ....anyone happen to know where I could find one of those Floyd Rose intonating keys or how well they work?
 
RattleCat said:
The documentation for my digital tuner says it has accuracy to within less than a half of a cent. I am thinking that this does a pretty good job for me unless you think a strobe tuner is really that much better. I guess I am wondering if I am going to see an improvement that is worth the price. Is the extra quarter cent accuracy what I get for the money or is there some other mojo I don't know about?
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It is not. That is one of those little things where you can not really trust specs. Under some circumstances, you can get it that close. Under real life circumstances, it is not even close to being that good.


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi
 
I got my Carvin DC 400 ten years ago and it hasn't gone out of tune yet.
Seriously.
When I change the strings, as soon as I lock the nuts then that's it. It stays in tune and now its starting to freak me out.
 
Light said:
No, actually, most electronic tuners are considerably less accurate than an average musicians ears, at least if they have ever learned to tune by ear. Digital tuners can be as good as the average musician, but they are no where near being good enough to do a professional job of intonating a guitar. Like I said above, digital tuners are only accurate to within a few cents. A strobe tuner is accurate to within less than a quarter of a cent. There is no question which one is more accurate, and doing a professional job of intonating a guitar is just not possible with out a strobe tuner.

Light
Click to expand...

I think you are missing the point. A precision strobe tuner is still an electronic tuner in my book, as there are many forms of electronic based tuner devices. Most all are more accurate that average ears, as their accuracy varies by device.

The point is that it is the end result in the hands of the owner that matters when doing a setup. That factor can easily override any small differences in tuner devices.

I have a very light touch when playing. I take that into account when doing my setup. When some of my friends play my guitar, it sounds sharp to them on higher frets. When I play their guitar, it has a tendency to sound flat. The difference is playing style.

Ed
 
Ed Dixon said:

The point is that it is the end result in the hands of the owner that matters when doing a setup. That factor can easily override any small differences in tuner devices.

I have a very light touch when playing. I take that into account when doing my setup.
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This is usually only an issue when you have uncommonly high frets. For most players, when the play, there fingers are stopped from going too far by the fingerboard.

And no, a strobe tuner is not an electronic tuner. They are completely unrelated in how they work. Most tuners try to measure the frequency, strobes do not. On the analog strobes, the AC current from the guitar (or what ever other instrument) drives a lamp behind a spinning disc. The speed of the disc can be very accurately calibrated with just a tuning fork, and it is this accuracy which makes the strobe tuner so much more suitable for setup work. The only electronics involved in the audio path of a strobe tuner is a small amplifier, so the guitars signal is hot enough to drive the lamp. An amplifier is a relatively simple piece of electronics. The circuits used to measure frequency in electronic tuners are vastly complex. In the electronics world, simple is always better, and always more accurate. No other type of tuner can match the accuracy of a strobe.


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi
 
As I said, I group all tuners that are electonic in nature together as a group. You example is just another such device. Without electricity, you'd be dead. How you choose to group them is your view.

Also, as I said, player preference matters. I think I already provided the examples of this. I have personnally seen this occur many more times than I have fingers and toes. When you've been playing for 40+ years, you begin to get a feel for some of the real things that can occur and matter.

And in the electronics works, simple is not always better, it's just simpler. Sometimes that is the best and sometimes it is not. Each case depends on the task at hand, the tools available, and the overall result using the different approaches.

The simplest approach would be to use just the guitar and ones ears. This is what the majority of guitar players used for the first few hundred (perhaps thousand) years of playing. However experience has shown, since other devices have come to light, that using other tools can yield a better result.

Again what is desired is the best result for the instrument owner. Most owners could care less what tools or approaches were used. What they most want is an instrument that performs when they use it.

Ed
 
Ed Dixon said:
When you've been playing for 40+ years, you begin to get a feel for some of the real things that can occur and matter.
Click to expand...


When you have been doing over 2000 repairs a year for thirty years, you learn more than a few things about guitars. I assure you, when I say that a strobe tuner is not related to other electronic tuners, I know what I am talking about. They are fundamentally different technologies, and you will never be able do an adequate job of intonating a guitar without a strobe tuner.


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi
 
I managed to find a comparison of a few tuners that were tested with a Sanderson Accutuner for comparison. Some were in the 3-6 cent range usually <$100 and the >$100 tuners were accurate to the cent. Only a handful of tuners were tested. They made no mention of circumstances.

I guess the thin hair is split by what the player considers adequate.
 
Light said:
I assure you, when I say that a strobe tuner is not related to other electronic tuners, I know what I am talking about. They are fundamentally different technologies, and you will never be able do an adequate job of intonating a guitar without a strobe tuner.
Click to expand...
You're trying hard to miss the point.

No one said anything about different tuner types being related. As I have said more than once, I group electronic tuner together as a group. Each specific device clearly has different characteritics and accuracies. No one doubts that.

However it remains as an absolute fact, that the end result is how the instrument in question performs in the hands of the owner, not on your bench or in yours or someone else's hands. Anyone who works on guitars should know this.

It is also the case that player styles differ considerably. Taking this into account can many times the the single most important factor in setup.

Ed
 
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