Is my Compressor faulty?

[RAMI]

OK, well then, we understand each other.

MAKE UP gain (as it's labelled on a compressor, not as some vague term we want to mold to fit our definition) is at the output of a compressor. I could have sworn about 5 of us have been saying that for about 3 pages. It's all good.

Now, let's try to help FRIZ (or whatever his name is) understand that turning up his tracks while tracking and mixing is not going to even come close to accomplishing what he thinks it will.

 

[RAMI]

Any gain knob, anywhere in the chain....is "making up" for signal....but it can also be used to turn it down.

Just for the record, ^^^^^^^^That was pure semantics and nothing else. All it did was confuse the issue while giving you an out. You know it, I know it, the bum on the corner of my street knows it. I bet even JIZ (or whatever his name is) knows it.

 

[Steenamaroo]

It's universally accepted that make up gain is after the compressor and 'makes up' for the loss.
No one's going to say, 'turn up the make up gain' and expect you to reach for the input gain, or question which one he means on that basis that it could really mean anything.

The OPs comp seems to have fixed threshold, input gain and output gain anyway.

 

[miroslav]

Now, let's try to help FRIZ understand that turning up his tracks while tracking and mixing is not going to even come close to accomplishing what he thinks it will.

That's cool.

I think he already better understands the Meek comp based on what I explained earleir about its Input/Output gain knobs...and that was the point...to say that there are two places to make up the signal gain on that unit (and others), and each has a different purpose/results.
That's all.....

Just for the record, ^^^^^^^^That was pure semantics and nothing else. All it did was confuse the issue while giving you an out. You know it, I know it, the bum on the corner of my street knows it. I bet even JIZ (or whatever his name is) knows it.

Yeah...OK....it gave me an "out"
I'll just finish by saying that if all you guys ever do with the output gain is turn it up in order to "make up"...then I can see the reason that term only means one thing to you.
As mentiond....there are times when you also have to turn DOWN the comp ouput....so then, how is it "making up"?
If you string nothing but hardware chains with stuff before and after a comp...it then makes more sense about the whole "gain" thing.

Semantics is not the issue.

God....I hope no one brings up "stereo" today...

 

[RAMI]

That's cool.

I think he already better understands his Meek comp based on what I explained earleir about its Input/Output gain knobs...and that was the point...to say that there are two places to make up the signal gain on that unit (and others), and each has a different purpose/results.
That's all.....

No offense, but I think he actually understands it less because of all that. Input gain does not "make up" anything. What's it making up? There has to be something to make up. It's simply turning up the signal coming in. I know, I know, you're going to say that's the same thing as "making up" signal, but it's not. Make up gain compensates for signal loss from compression. There's no reason to confuse the issue by saying Input gain "makes up" signal. You're just "Making up" phrases at this point.

 

[RAMI]

SKIZ (or whatever your name is), don't go out and buy a limiter for your tracks. You'll be wasting your money. Turn down your tracks while tracking and mixing and worry about your volume once everything's recorded and mixed, not before.

 

[Steenamaroo]

Yeah...OK....it gave me an "out"
I'll just finish by saying that if all you guys ever do with the output gain is turn it up in order to "make up"...then I can see the reason that term only means one thing to you.

This is actually quite condescending, Miro.

Many manufacturers call the final gain stage 'makeup gain' because it gives you the option to make up for the loss after compressing.
Any I've seen labelled makeup gain have unity minimum, so lets not pretend people are turning the comp output down...

If there's fixed threshold and input/output gain like the OP's that's different.
Nothing's likely to be labelled makeup gain there.

I've never seen a compressor with the the first stage being labelled "makeup gain" on the assumption that you're going to want to make up for a low gain preamp or low output mic.

We can see why you might call it that. I think that's a better fit.

 

[RAMI]

if all you guys ever do with the output gain is turn it up in order to "make up"...then I can see the reason that term only means one thing to you.

It only means one thing to everybody....except you. You can make up your own terms all you want. The phrase "make up" gain is not vague. It's plastered on almost every single compressor out there because it only means one thing to everyone....except you. I can refer you to 10 compressors that say "Make up" gain on them, and every single one of them will have it at the output, doing what "Make up" gain does, to everyone...except you.

Please refer me to ONE compressor that says "Make up" gain on the input. Just one. Please.

 

[miroslav]

I thought he said thanks....

Thanks, The Meeks got an output and input gain, I guess i learnt a bit on comps and someone may read this someday and learn a bit too

AFA me "making it up"....I guess the guys that built those "retarded/high end outboard units" didn't really understand that you can only say "make-up" gain at a comps outpout when they used the term at the input.
Yes...go check out some of the vintage AD&R units and it actually DOES say Make-Up at the input!

We're cool...as long as everyone understands the terminoloy and its application so that it makes sense to them...that's what counts.

 

[ecc83]

Not sure where this thread has wandered but the Meek compressor under discussion has no valves in it nor audio transformers according to the manual (OP, the traff you see is the mains power jobbie) .

They are at pains to point out the very high headroom of both the inputs and output circuits and since Meek did work to BBC specifications it is unlikely that this is one of those compressors that has much of an attitude.

Sadly they do not see fit to include even a signal flow diagram much less a schematic!

Dave.

 

[RAMI]

I thought he said thanks....



AFA me "making it up"....I guess the guys that built those "retarded/high end outboard units" didn't really understand that you can only make-up gain at a comps outpout when they used the term at the input.
Yes...go check out some of the vintage AD&R units and it actually DOES say Make-Up at the input!

We're cool...as long as everyone understands the terminoloy and its application so that it makes sense to them...that's what counts.

Just because he thinks he learned something, doesn't mean he did, because he didn't. If anything, he learned wrong if he thinks what you're saying makes any sense.

Please post a picture or link to any compressor that has "Make up" gain at the input. Should be pretty easy to do since you seem to think (even though I know even you don't believe what you're saying) that it's common.

Please, enlighten us all by showing us one.

 

[miroslav]

This is actually quite condescending, Miro.

Many manufacturers call the final gain stage 'makeup gain' because it gives you the option to make up for the loss after compressing.
Any I've seen labelled makeup gain have unity minimum, so lets not pretend people are turning the comp output down... .

Steen....there ARE comps where output minimum is NOT unity. Not a single one of my hardware comps uis unity at minimum.
So that outpuot knob is not just about making up for "loss" due not compression. I really think if you step back and not not just look at the comp, and consider how hardware requires signal matching more than ITB...it's quite clear.
There are multiple ways to use gain at front or back end....I was just saying that if you guys only use it for making up signal loss, then I can see why the term only means that one thing to you.

Nothing condescending there...

 

[RAMI]

There are multiple ways to use gain at front or back end....I was just saying that if you guys only use it for making up signal loss, then I can see why the term only means that one thing to you.

You're changing your story. We are talking specifically about the knob that says "Make up" on it. We're not talking about "how you guys use gain". Seriously man........

Just for the record, I already said earlier in this thread that I almost never even use Make-up gain. But that's not the point. We're talking about a specific knob that is at the output of almost every single compressor out there. This has nothing to do with how different people use gain. This is now just a worthless discussion dominated by someone who's using semantics and changing his story. I'm sorry I bit. I ain't biting no more.



I just hope BLIZ (or whatever his name is) learns something from all this. I have a feeling he's less informed now than he was yesterday.

I'm truly out of this. I've done enough feeding someone who's on the verge of troling. I think this thread gave me cancer.

 

[Steenamaroo]

ADR compex 2. Image.

"The audio signal path through the Compex is extremely short. The unbalanced input signal is connected to a simple three-transistor amplifier providing 34dB of gain — essentially the make-up gain element of a normal compressor....."
Even the description suggests that this is not normal.


The exception that justifies debate.

 

[Steenamaroo]

I just hope BLIZ (or whatever his name is) learns something from all this.

I just hope FRIZ (or whatever his name is) sees the funny side!

 

[RAMI]

I just hope FRIZ (or whatever his name is) sees the funny side!

I just hope we didn't offend his mother, Ms. DRIZ (or whatever her name is).

 

[Steenamaroo]

Steen....there ARE comps where output minimum is NOT unity.

I'm sure there are, but when there's a choice between acknowledging the commonly known and complicating a thread with rare exceptions from long before I was born, I'd go with the former.

Yes, sure, it's good to know that there are several gain stages in any system and that understanding them is critical, especially with hardware.
But makeup gain is what it is. People know that.

You've got a point worth making in there, no doubt. My fear is that it got lost in an unnecessary semantics debate.

You can loosely use the term anywhere you like, but most people are going to assume you're talking about the final stage, and with good reason.

 

[RAMI]

n general, make-up gain is situated more in the front of the circuit, often the first thing, and so it drives the rest of the comp and affects your choices

Just putting this here to show what the original statement was. It's clear as day that Miro thought (or still thinks) that Make-Up gain is "situated more in the front of the circuit". Since then, the story has changed. Basically, no matter how one tries to twist and turn and change their story, this shows that the issue is a basic and obvious lack of understanding of what "make up gain" is on at least 99.99999% of compressors. All the squirming in the world doesn't change that. But nice try.

OK, now I'm out. I promise. I've even un-subscribed because I've read enough pure bullshit for the day.

 

[miroslav]

I'm sure there are, but when there's a choice between acknowledging the commonly known and complicating a thread with rare exceptions from long before I was born, I'd go with the former.

Now you sound a bit condenscending...what's age got to do with it?

You've got a point worth making in there, no doubt. My fear is that it got lost in an unnecessary semantics debate.

Well...I think Jimmy is the one that rasied the sematics discussion and stirred the pot with his somewhat "grouchy" comments.

I was simply trying to point out that "gain" can be at either end, and often is. It really should be just referred to as Input and Output gain, unless like you said, the Make-Up gain can only do unity at minimum, then OK, it's purely for make-up.

Maybe the hardware mentality here is a bit "old"...but I can't just draw a line and only consider what the current accepted definitions might be or how people now days use some terms and how they consider gain structure in the ITB world.
Yes, I admit it's sometimes of a PITA, as I do find myself sometimes talking pure;y from a hardware perspective when I then realize that the other person is purely looking at it ITB, where some analog considerations may not apply and/or where they have been lost and forgotten.

As I jokingly said earleir...it's amazing how much the term "stereo" has been bastardized in the ITB world, and it's not necessarily the fault of the users, it's just how they now see it.


Anyway....for you RAMI....I had to go get pictures for you!

The manual states that "MAKE UP" lifts input signal and enables gain to be added without having to overdrive the signal source amplifier...meaning, so that you can properly drive the threshold and the action.
So I really wasn't making anything up.
It may be more common these days to use that term only at the back end of comps...but again, my main point was to just suggest to the OP and others, that there IS a use for gain at the front end...and whether it is making up or lowering down the signal, depends on the rest of the chain before and after.

 

[miroslav]

Just putting this here to show what the original statement was. It's clear as day that Miro thought (or still thinks) that Make-Up gain is "situated more in the front of the circuit".

Whatever...you guys are focused on terminology....I'm looking at use.
Most of my comps have input gain and it's used to make up the gain from the source without having to jack up the source. I actually adjust input gain way more than I do output on my comps...but again...I'm talking mostly hardware chains.
That's how I use it...that's what it is doing, making up for the low input signal.
You can have the gain at both ends...and if you look at what I also stated earlier, the term "make-up" is not always used on comps....so there is no standard, but I think everyone here has decided on what it means...so that's fine.

I'm done too....I've also wasted too much time on this today when I had other stuff to do.
You can ignore the last post and the images if you like...'cuz I just made them up too so I could have an "out".